triskelion Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 Bizarre. So, by your logic, it would be most economical for us all to drive 4-litre BMWs and leave our windows open during the winter. Transport fuel costs are higher than ever, yet we are also using more than ever. So you are talking nonsense. An alternative scenario is: Manx Gas moves into retailing energy efficiency goods to supplement its gas-retail business, thus recognising an emerging market and transitioning from one characterised by tight supplies, cartel-dominance and ever-higher costs. Currently however, it is not economically worthwhile to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 Bizarre. So, by your logic, it would be most economical for us all to drive 4-litre BMWs and leave our windows open during the winter. Transport fuel costs are higher than ever, yet we are also using more than ever. So you are talking nonsense. no, what i'm saying is that the infrastructure needs paying for regardless of how much product is sold. therefore the mark up per unit of product has to be more if less product is sold to balance the books. if the mea didn't sell a single unit of electricity, there would still be the workers wages to pay and the repayments on the new powerstation. thats why we won't all get to opt out of buying their electricity by having our own wind turbines. if 20% of the population were able to get their electricity elsewhere it leaves the 80% to pay the mea's bills, so more cost to them. most of the cost of fuel at the pumps is duty. the duty goes to the government who need money to run the country. IF they are getting less money in from less fuel sold, then they need to increase revenue. the only way for that to happen is more taxes/duty. and the way this lot piss our money away on consultants wet dreams it's no wonder we pay over the odds for many things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gags Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 At least they have not put any gas price increase onto the standing charge this time. Dont forget it costs £54 a year (inc VAT) simply to be connected to the gas mains and it annoys us when wholesale gas increases are added onto this charge as you cannot use any 'less' of the standing charge!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triskelion Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Bizarre. So, by your logic, it would be most economical for us all to drive 4-litre BMWs and leave our windows open during the winter. Transport fuel costs are higher than ever, yet we are also using more than ever. So you are talking nonsense. no, what i'm saying is that the infrastructure needs paying for regardless of how much product is sold. therefore the mark up per unit of product has to be more if less product is sold to balance the books. if the mea didn't sell a single unit of electricity, there would still be the workers wages to pay and the repayments on the new powerstation. thats why we won't all get to opt out of buying their electricity by having our own wind turbines. if 20% of the population were able to get their electricity elsewhere it leaves the 80% to pay the mea's bills, so more cost to them. most of the cost of fuel at the pumps is duty. the duty goes to the government who need money to run the country. IF they are getting less money in from less fuel sold, then they need to increase revenue. the only way for that to happen is more taxes/duty. and the way this lot piss our money away on consultants wet dreams it's no wonder we pay over the odds for many things. Whilst you are right to say infrastructure needs paying for regardless, I am far convinced by your subsequent arguments. Firstly, no business in its right mind is going to raise prices in response to a decline in its customer base. If people switching to self-generation, they would still, if they have any sense, remain connected to the grid and would likely still require MEA supply for, say, windless days. Clearly however, the MEA would still be selling fewer units to such people. The MEA still has alternatives to your 'charge more' strategy though. It still has the undersea cable through which it could sell electricity to the UK. Additionally, it may make sense for it to become a retailer of wind turbines, solar panels et al itself. The duty at the pumps is about 50% of the price, which does indeed represent a substantial chunk of Government revenue. However, if this declines, it is equally true to say that people are paying less tax, unveiling the argument that any tax brought in to correct this shortfall would not truly constitute 'more.' Ultimately, relatively little Government revenue is spent on 'consultants' or even large capital projects. Instead, most of it is spent on the various sections of the DHSS, and then the DoE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 agree with you but people on MR moan about Manx Gas and a lack of competition but do not come up with a sensible solution.I cannot see one much different than the Company we have now Be reasonable! This forum is the internet equivalent of the Mannin Line - aka 'The Moanin' Line.' It exists because people like to moan - not just in the IoM, but everywhere. As for 'sensible solutions' - as soon as they're proposed, the majority of posters either lose interest or fail to understand them and move on to other things to moan about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 If people did move to self generation in a significant way then unless MEB relied entirely on the cable to the UK it would be forced to increase prices considerably - self-generators only require supply at restricted times however all within the Island would also be affected thus MEB would need considerable capital investment which for much of the time is not earning any return. An alternative scheme for Manx Gas is to return to the town owned service - effectively run as a non-profit making mutual utility owned by tax or rate payers - which scheme was common among the labour controlled boroughs of North West England before the great Nationalisation of 1948 - the obvious drawback is that local politicans usually make bad managers but Manx Gas (owned by non-Manx company) appears to be making a high return on its capital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triskelion Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 If people did move to self generation in a significant way then unless MEB relied entirely on the cable to the UK it would be forced to increase prices considerably - self-generators only require supply at restricted times however all within the Island would also be affected thus MEB would need considerable capital investment which for much of the time is not earning any return. Any such process, however, would be gradual and thus give the MEB sufficient time to plan and adapt. There isn't much chance of substantially self-generating at this moment in time, even if it were desirable. Spookily Frances, I am, as write this, researching an essay on post-war nationalisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 If people did move to self generation in a significant way then unless MEB relied entirely on the cable to the UK it would be forced to increase prices considerably - self-generators only require supply at restricted times however all within the Island would also be affected thus MEB would need considerable capital investment which for much of the time is not earning any return. Couldn't the self-generated power be sold back alongthe same cable, balancing things out a bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Spookily Frances, I am, as write this, researching an essay on post-war nationalisation. There is a problem I believe with the current set up both for Manx Gas and also IoMSPCo in that the capital value of both seems to me inflated by the monopoly they enjoy - this monopoly is granted to them by the Island thus and proper regulation should look at the true physical assets and not the paper value. Re reselling self-generated power - unless you can store the energy (eg in pumped storage) surplus self generated power will always be at a low price (unless artifically inflated by politics) as at the time of sale there will be a glut on the market Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Couldn't the self-generated power be sold back alongthe same cable, balancing things out a bit? I'm jelous "It's fun to watch our old-fashioned meter spinning backwards when the sun is shining" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 as I said "surplus self generated power will always be at a low price (unless artificially inflated by politics) " - tax payers gave him half of his capital costs and pay over the odds for the power - whilst numbers are small this can be tolerated (eg worthwhile paying to get experience or to start up an industry) but is not sustainable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Fugit Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 if there are any around who remember the 'fuel crisis' in circa 1973 when we had fuel rationing coupons and the telly closed down at 10pm and you were told to turn off any non-essential appliances etc, the demand for electricity dropped, and as the MEA's profits had dropped the price was increased to resore the level of profit (not Proffitt !) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 as I said "surplus self generated power will always be at a low price (unless artificially inflated by politics) " - tax payers gave him half of his capital costs and pay over the odds for the power - whilst numbers are small this can be tolerated (eg worthwhile paying to get experience or to start up an industry) but is not sustainable If you read the article, he didn't get paid over the odds per unit, just got a bonus from the RO payment. The capital costs have halved in the time since installation, which negates his grant if he'd had the system installed today. Incentives are needed to get these things up and running and paid for because there's big up front costs and a long payback, I don't see a problem with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triskelion Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 He didn't actually generate 92% of his electricity though; just the equivalent of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 they are being paid more for the electricity than the utility can sell it for - crazy - notice that they don't actually use the electricity they generate thus the utility still needs to provide plant to cover the peak demands once the sun does not shine - as the PV cannot guarantee a fixed supply the utility must still have generation capacity ready to switch in at short notice. All these home generation schemes only work if the number of PVsuppliers and the power they supply is minimal to the amount generally supplied. Let the Germans offer 35p a unit - I suspect once industry has to pay this for energy they will rapidly move elsewhere - a hot water supply might well work better but again too much hot water is supplied at times when it is not required. Any realistic local generation scheme needs eneergy storage and this problem has as yet no cheap solution - also I'm amazed at the 0.5% degradation rate - my own estimate is probably nearer 10x this figure + other failure modes would I suggest give an estimated life time of about 20 years thus on present prices they can never be cost effective but are a 'religious' statement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.