Lonan3 Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I don't know if there's been any discussion of this, but it really is back in the news today. Originally called the Reform Treaty, the Lisbon Treaty was drawn up to replace the draft European constitution after it was thrown out by voters in France and the Netherlands in 2005. The Lisbon Treaty was signed in the Portuguese capital by leaders of the EU's 27 member states in December 2007. Governments have been asked to ratify the Treaty in 2008 with a view to it coming into force in January 2009. It contains many of the changes the constitution attempted to introduce. The Republic of Ireland is the only member state to hold a referendum on the treaty - on 12 June 2008. According to a Supreme Court ruling in 1987, any major amendment to an EU treaty entails an amendment to the Irish constitution - and that in turn requires a referendum. If just one of the EU's 27 member states fails to ratify the treaty, it cannot come into force. GUARDIAN STORY Apart from showing that it may well be the only EU country that dares to embrace democracy, the Irish decision to hold a referendum might, possibly, throw a very large spanner into the EU's bureaucratic march. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 This treaty, along with the potential election of Obama in the states, could have quite potentially dire consequences for the island as an offshore centre IMO. The results of the Irish referendum will be known around tea-time tonight apparently - and personally I hope they have kicked it into touch. If the result is a 'Yes', perhaps it'll be a good time to blow the dust of our plans to go independent, given the likely future voracity of the OECD and Europe on offshore tax matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutley Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Here's hoping for a NO vote. Spoke to a few Irish friends last night and they all voted no. A lot of commentators are saying that the onus is on the Irish to either save the EU and vote YES or save democracy and vote NO (depending on who they're writing for). Surely the most startling fact of all of this (whether or not you're in the YES or NO camp) is that only Irish constitution insists on a referendum? Which is ironic because if it is passed then in future the EU constitution and laws will supersede the Irish constitution and laws and the Irish will never be able to ask their people's opinion via a referendum on any future EU proposals. One friend said to me last night that they were voting no because not only is the document unintelligible and vague but that it's not finished and there are still bits to go in it after (and if) it gets passed. And yet the 26 other heads of EU Govts are agreeing to it! Particular shame on the French and Duch Govts after their voters dismissed the previous (and from what I can gather almost identical) document. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebees Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 How come only Ireland was allowed to vote this time? is it because the others all said 'No' last time so they weren't allowed a say this time? The Isle Of Man would be OK being independant wouldnt it? Might get life back into perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutley Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 How come only Ireland was allowed to vote this time? is it because the others all said 'No' last time so they weren't allowed a say this time? The Isle Of Man would be OK being independant wouldnt it? Might get life back into perspective. It's written into the Irish constitution that a referendum has to take place for such issues. This is not in place in any other EU country AFAIK (correct me if I'm wrong). In every other country the decision has been made by the ruling Govt on the basis that they were elected to be the voice of and act for the people. What has rankled a lot of people across Europe is that they don't agree with the Lisbon Treaty (France and Holland in particular voted against a slightly different version in a previous referendum but were not allowed a vote on this) but their Govts are signing them up for it anyway. The treaty itself is a pretty unreadable document fully of leagalese and EU jargon. One EU minister has even put his foot in it saying he hasn't read it as it's too complex. The thing that has become apparant from reading blogs, forums etc and talking to people I know is that Ireland is very much pro-Europe and the majority are very proud to be European however they are Irish first and foremost. A lot of them are anti-EU and they don't want to be ruled by a federal Europe that has the power to overrule Irish law by default. It looks like the Treaty has been rejected according to the tally men. It'll be interesting to see what the EU does now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebees Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 TBH I only know a bit about it because Mr Bees and I talk about stuff like this, I tried to read some stuff about it but it was full of words I do not care to understand. When things get to the point where only lawyers can read them, there has to be something wrong going on. Chancery, theres one - whats that all about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 it'll be a good time to blow the dust of our plans to go independent, given the likely future voracity of the OECD and Europe on offshore tax matters. Yes - if you think that the island would do well as a pariah state with which nobody (including even Britain) would want to do business. It would be like living under siege. Personally I prefer the current sensible policy of quietly explaining ourselves and reaching agreement with our friends, neighbors and trading partners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted June 13, 2008 Author Share Posted June 13, 2008 JUST SAY NO Ireland has voted No to the Lisbon Treaty, plunging the European Union into a new crisis. With results coming in from across the country, a final result of 52 per cent against and 48 per cent in favour of the treaty was rapidly hardening. A final declaration is not expected until after 4 pm. The Lisbon Treaty, the reworked successor to the formal constitutional pact dumped by voters in France and the Netherlands in 2005, officially needs the approval of all 27 EU member states. But only in Ireland has it been put to a popular vote, meaning today's result may have far-reaching consequences for the entire bloc. Ireland has been the only country with the courage to give it's citizens a vote on the EU grand plan. Leaders of the other countries know that the risk of similar results would be high, and have withheld their citizens' right to vote. British ratification of the treaty is in its final stages in the House of Lords Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monasqueen Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 It used to be "Ulster Says No" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutley Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Ireland has been the only country with the courage to give it's citizens a vote on the EU grand plan. Leaders of the other countries know that the risk of similar results would be high, and have withheld their citizens' right to vote. British ratification of the treaty is in its final stages in the House of Lords I don't think it's courage as the 3 main parties in Ireland wanted a YES vote and pulled out the stops including from what I can gather a pretty comprehensive misinformation and scare-mongering campaign. What it does show however is that if you have a decent constitution in place it protects citizens and their rights even when the main ruling politicians want to push through an unpopular or unwanted decision. A YES vote would have made the Irish constitution virtually useless. A bit glib and over dramatic to say it but possibly the best bit of working Democracy I've seen for a long time. But... as they've done in the past they'll probably re-run the Referendum again and again until they get the answer they want. Some interesting comments here both for and against. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no...ndex=0#comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I don't think it's courage as the 3 main parties in Ireland wanted a YES vote and pulled out the stops including from what I can gather a pretty comprehensive misinformation and scare-mongering campaign. What it does show however is that if you have a decent constitution in place it protects citizens and their rights even when the main ruling politicians want to push through an unpopular or unwanted decision. A YES vote would have made the Irish constitution virtually useless. A bit glib and over dramatic to say it but possibly the best bit of working Democracy I've seen for a long time. But... as they've done in the past they'll probably re-run the Referendum again and again until they get the answer they want. Both the Yes and No parties indulged in pretty massive misinformation - the No case appear to have been better organised in promoting their misinformation! The main parties' politicians seem to have thought that Joe Public would toe the line so did little convincing. Rather silly at a time when the Irish housing market is going down and the price of fuel and food is going up. The political chattering classes seem to be really out of touch with public sentiment. They are now looking for reasons to explain their defeat - buying mirrors and looking into them would reveal the reason. Is this turn of events something else to thank Sinn Fein for as the main anti Treaty party? (oops I think they were that 90 years ago too!!!) It will be interesting to see whether the 26 EU states that have endorsed the Constitutional Treaty (or are in the process of so-doing) will now accept that the Treaty is dead. This is likely to be the deciding factor as to whether the question gets put again. Just goes to prove that the French and Dutch were not alone in not liking further centralisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triskelion Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 They could just kick Ireland out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutley Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 They could just kick Ireland out Why because they didn't vote the way they wanted them to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 They could just kick Ireland out The same way they kicked France and the Netherlands out when they voted 'No' on the EU Constitution last time ? From comments today the No vote is not expressing anti-EU sentiment (as it might in the UK). It appears to be anti the remote and 'elitist' EU bureaucracy and pro greater democratic involvement, openess and accountability as promised when the Constitution was originally being mooted. Emphasis is being placed by the leaders of the No campaign on the need for the politicians and the public servants to begin to listen much more carefully to the electorate. Touch of the same needed in the IOM? They continue to say that the No vote is 'pro EU' but anti a Treaty/Constitution that would centralise more controls in Brussels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollag Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 It used to be "Ulster Says No" But the man from Del Monte, he say YES! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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