An Island Covered In Wind Turbines?

[triskelion]

More guff from the Celtic League. 'Monitor the situation.' Thanks for that, what stellarly useless advice. Cronky, the main problems with a small nuclear power station are a) Waste disposal, b) Its very expensive, c) Uranium is not a renewable resource, d) You need highly trained staff to operate it, e) Security, f) Non-proliferation treaties.

 

The concerns the letter raises about wind power and turbines are pretty standard, though it is worth pointing out that whilst wind turbines operate at only 30% efficiency, even coal plant only operate at around 50%. I feel the writer's concern that the countryside will be ruined to power the urban lifestyles of people who will be untouched by them is legitimate, which is why I favour offshore installations.

[Cronky]

I can see the argument for some electricity generation from an offshore wind farm. However, it's never going to be enough to reliably satisfy peak demand in winter. So where does the rest of the supply come from? Jersey, out of interest, imports it's electricity from France. We would not want to be dependent, I am sure, on the UK for our supply.

 

Whatever solution transpires I doubt we will, in the future, be relying on any single source.

[triskelion]

Yeah, its good for Jersey because France have invested in nuclear power consistently, whereas Britian hasn't since the first one or two waves of reactors. Then again, France often has a 'fuck you' approach to contraversy. As a result, their nuclear power is cheap. Incidently, this is how Germany is 'so far ahead' on renewables: They balance them with cheap imported French nuclear power.

 

Thinking about it, France haven't had so many problems with the coal unions, nor have they had access to hydrocarbon deposits on the scale of the North Sea, so it probably made a lot more sense for them to stay with nuclear.

 

For some reason though, Peter Karran thinks comparing electricity prices with those in Jersey makes sense.

[WTF]

I can see the argument for some electricity generation from an offshore wind farm. However, it's never going to be enough to reliably satisfy peak demand in winter. So where does the rest of the supply come from? Jersey, out of interest, imports it's electricity from France. We would not want to be dependent, I am sure, on the UK for our supply.

 

Whatever solution transpires I doubt we will, in the future, be relying on any single source.

 

enough turbines should produce enough electricity. it just means that you would probably need far more than usual to give the energy required at peak times. if electric was 'rationed' so each household could only have so many Kwh per day, then people would have to prioritise their usage of it rather than just pay more to have more and there could be enough to go round. also peak times could be lessened if the majority of people didn't have the same working hours.

[mollag]

i like the idea of wind turbines, i think there is one in bits at the back of the ronaldsway aircraft factory, you would think they could make the sod fly!

I dont have any details but was there not a report out of Germany analysing the economics of wind generation over a long period. It was about 18 months ago and it was as i remember quite negative about the whole thing.

Apologies, i havnt read it, im hoping somebody may enlighten me.

 

 

Re a previous post on efficiency, as the input energy,ie wind , is free then the efficiency is unimpotant, output alone being the criteria.

For a coal/oil/gas station fuel is paid for so the maximum efficiency is paramount. A fuel fired CHP station can be up to 80% efficient.

 

 

Eggs and baskets come to mind, a mixed bag of generation would serve us well particularly if it removed our dependancy from one fuel source alone.

[Alias]

enough turbines should produce enough electricity. it just means that you would probably need far more than usual to give the energy required at peak times. if electric was 'rationed' so each household could only have so many Kwh per day, then people would have to prioritise their usage of it rather than just pay more to have more and there could be enough to go round. also peak times could be lessened if the majority of people didn't have the same working hours.

That would be a pointless and very expensive setup. You'd effectively have half your turbines redundant the majority of the time (and you still wouldn't have near complete energy security), rather than using an alternative energy source which can be scaled to support the demand from quiet days.

 

About the peak time: nice in theory but it would never happen.

[WTF]

Re a previous post on efficiency, as the input energy,ie wind , is free then the efficiency is unimpotant, output alone being the criteria.

 

that is not quite all that matters. although wind is free, the turbine costs money in the first place. there is no point in a system with free fuel if the cost of the machine and it's maintenance over it's lifetime ( everything wears out and needs replacing ) balanced against it's actual electrical production actually works out more expensive to produce a unit of electricity? it is not really economical. it may have free fuel and be 'green', but that is not all that is required to balance the books. it may cost more per unit so your leccy bill would still be on the up. they couldn't blame increases on fuel prices, but wages and running costs would still be going up.

look at water?? water is free, but we still get water bills based on what we use. not all water is metered like electric, but you still pay for the infrastructure and its maintenance. not sure if it is still the case, but i think? farmers used to get charged per acre in their rates for the 'free' rain they could have that grew thier crops and grass. just because something costs nothing to create doesn't mean you get given it. and as it will be companies wanting to make money, we will still pay over the odds.

[mollag]

Ahh got it, we are at cross purposes, i was looking at energy efficiency as a product of output over input x 100 for ex 6Mw of ellecy from coal with a value [potential] of 10Mw giving 60% efficiency.

 

Of course you are dead on with further costs adding to the final bill, likewise a free fuel will always help the financial equation.

[pongo]

if electric was 'rationed' so each household could only have so many Kwh per day, then people would have to prioritise their usage etc

About the peak time: nice in theory but it would never happen.

 

Re: the peak time thing. Charging a different rate at different times of the day is the conventional way of adjusting the load, the relationship between supply and demand at different times. The greater the differential the more that might start to have an effect. Over supply of electricity at off peak times could always be used to provide less expensive hot water and heating in general.

[Chinahand]

We would not want to be dependent, I am sure, on the UK for our supply.

 

Which is a reason to have the second cable to Eire. That will also allow us to take advantage of the different lighting up time to even out peak demand. It's only 20 mins or so, but it helps. And reduces energy dependence a little!

[Frances]

Which is a reason to have the second cable to Eire.

Unless Eire has managed to find a cheaper fuel for power generation I can see no advantage other than political of trying to install a cable across the deep trench between the Island and Ireland - surely a better one is between Point of Ayre and soon to be independent Scotland with its hydropower

[WTF]

Ahh got it, we are at cross purposes, i was looking at energy efficiency as a product of output over input x 100 for ex 6Mw of ellecy from coal with a value [potential] of 10Mw giving 60% efficiency.

 

Of course you are dead on with further costs adding to the final bill, likewise a free fuel will always help the financial equation.

 

with you. effeciency does not necessarilly equate to cheap or cheaper. if something was 99% effecient and cost 10k a unit it would be pointless.

[fable]

Well, it had to happen I suppose, a local politician gets on the wind turbine band wagon:

 

Wind power must be progressed

 

Oil price crisis excepted, personally I can't stand the things. Noisy, unsightly and they will produce bugger all during a winter anti cyclone.

 

Let the debate begin . . .

 

We don't have many natural resources and this is one we can use. There would have been objections when the very first power station was built on the island. Were you objecting to electricity and coal fired then? New fangled thing and dirty! If everyone listed to objectors then we would be in the dark now and no forum to make comments on.

 

Bring them on!

[Frances]

There would have been objections when the very first power station was built on the island.

Any ref ? - in 1907 the librarian of Douglas speaking at opening of Peel library stated "He had found that in Douglas books on electricity were very widely read — so widely that they could hardly provide sufficient of them" - no complaints I can find - in fact most welcomed it eg Onchan church was the first lit by electricity pre 1900.

[triskelion]

Which is a reason to have the second cable to Eire.

Unless Eire has managed to find a cheaper fuel for power generation I can see no advantage other than political of trying to install a cable across the deep trench between the Island and Ireland - surely a better one is between Point of Ayre and soon to be independent Scotland with its hydropower

Your definition of 'soon' appears to vary greatly from mine, and most other people's I'd imagine. The independence movement in Scotland is in a clear minority and its main proponents, the SNP, run a minority government that panders to the middle class and is dominated by hysterical ideologues with no real idea about how to govern a country. Alex Salmond appears interested only in the denigration of others rather than serious political debate, and his answer in Holyrood question time invariably involve the words 'Well, compared to the UK Government.'

 

Scottish independence is a long way off, if it happens at all. Certainly in the current and foreseeable World circumstances it is extremely unlikely.

 

And I think you'll find we already have access to Scottish hydropower by virtue of our connection to the UK National Grid.