Jersey Could Go It Alone

[triskelion]

Tax Research's 'piece' was more arguing we got proportinately more VAT revenue than we deserved (I never quite understood how they worked it out, but I'm confident their logic was erroneous) and that the Island pays less per capita on the British military than UK residents do. This latter was exceptionly bizarre, as it is a defensive contribution from the Isle of Man, and it is certainly not our military.

[Skeddan]

Just to be clear about this - the £300m mentioned is VAT raised on local goods and services? Why would independence create a £300m hole as has been suggested:

 

The IoM has no option but to keep the link with the UK unless we can find a magic way of raising £300m or more in extra tax each year.

 

Wouldn't the 'magic way' of raising this be simply to introduce VAT or GST at the same rate?

 

So does the UK subsidise IoM or not?

 

If it doesn't, then there isn't the economic hurdle to independence as seems to have been suggested.

[triskelion]

Argh! Skedden: The UK does not subsidise the IoM. As John made clear, the Common Purse Agreement would not have to be scrapped in the event of independence.

 

It seems as though people have consider independence to mean the complete severance of ties with the UK, which is not the case.

[Skeddan]

OK - the UK does not subsidise IoM. But why would ending the CPA lead to a loss of revenue as has been stated:

 

the Manx Government maybe receive the largest part of its funding via the Common Purse Agreement, but its important to remember that, in the event of independence, that revenue would, for the most part still be gathered. Now, given that the general impression is that the Island does well out of this agreement, it is not unreasonable to postualte that there would, in such an eventuality, be a shortfall for the Treasury. However, this could be predicted, and plans made to compensate for this.

 

It covers duties collected at Uk borders and also VAT paid in UK on purchases by IOM residents on mail order or IKEA runs etc

 

Yes if we no longer had a customs agreement with UK we woul;d lose some of that. But why, if we have independence, do we ned to tear up the customs and VAT agreement? We can still have one.

 

So if no CPA then VAT on mail order items would not be collected in the UK (but would presumably be VAT exempt for export), however wouldn't Manx VAT/GST be chargeable on importing it into IoM? If so this would still be collected even if no CPA.

 

Why then if there was no CPA would there be "a shortfall for the Treasury" or "we would lose some of that"?

 

I can see the CPA makes collection and administration easier (perhaps), but I don't see why not having this customs agreement would lead to a loss of revenue for IoM.

[Albert Tatlock]

Yada Yada...

 

So anyone going to start a list of topics for the 'Table of Contents' for an 'independence assessment'?

[manshimajin]

Yada Yada...

 

So anyone going to start a list of topics for the 'Table of Contents' for an 'independence assessment'?

 

Albert I think Chapters 1 to 21 are 'How do we compensate for losing £300 million from the UK?'

 

If Jersey can manage its own GST and excise duties why can't the IOM??????

 

The basic point is not the £300 million but a basic SWOT analysis of independence.

[triskelion]

Okay, in an effort to move the discussion on from the £300 million non-issue, here are the issues the Jersey report considered.

 

Defence

International relations

Internal constitution reforms

Economic considerations

Other internal considerations

 

Defence - The current set up for the IoM seems unproblematic for me: We pay them to defend us. Okay, the actual military threat is minimal, but its no worse than joining a full alliance, and comes with fewer strings. Also, the British Army comes over and does recruitment and stuff, which is good imo. Potentially, closer links could be sought with Ireland regarding defence (eg shared responsibility for the Island's defence), but I can't see this as necessary at the moment.

 

International relations - Probably the most problematic. This would require the establishment of a foreign office of some kind firstly. Then missions would have to be established to certain key places. Using Jersey as a comparable model, these would be London (proximity, agreements), Brussels (EU) and New York (UN). The Jersey report also suggests something in the Gulf (eg Dubai) and maybe something in Shanghai. UN membership is a 'must' and the relationship with the EU would have to be negotiated. Joining international organisations looks costly and would require experienced personnel the Island currently lacks.

 

Internal reforms - With the likely creation of foreign minister, serious debate about the 'bloc' would have to be considered. The best way forward imo would be to get the LegCo to a stage where it can contain ministers without a lot of 'Harumphing' from certain quarters. Appointment of Attorney General may be a problem, but hardly insurmountable.

 

Economic Considerations - Somewhat done to death already, but overall seems unproblematic.

 

Other internal considerations - Island could probably remain part of the common travel area, and an agreement with the BBC could be reached if so desired (which I would). Health education and prison structures would remain largely unchanged, although the option to deport UK criminals would become open to the Island

[VinnieK]

Health education and prison structures would remain largely unchanged,

 

Higher education may need to be thought about a little bit more since we get a slight discount on our fees. Independence would probably move us into the international fees bracket which can mean fees of around £3,000 higher than those we're currently charged. Given the difficulty (verging on impossibility, in my opinion) of establishing and maintaining a high quality research university on the Island we'd either have to renegotiate fees, and, failing that, try to evaluate whether or not the increased costs demanded a rethink of the current funding and grant scheme.

[pongo]

Defence - The current set up for the IoM seems unproblematic for me: We pay them to defend us. Okay, the actual military threat is minimal, but its no worse than joining a full alliance, and comes with fewer strings. Also, the British Army comes over and does recruitment and stuff, which is good imo. Potentially, closer links could be sought with Ireland regarding defence (eg shared responsibility for the Island's defence), but I can't see this as necessary at the moment.

 

The British & Irish military frequently (increasingly) train together now anyhow. And masses of people from the Republic still choose a career in the British rather than the Irish military. There is a long thread about this at boards.ie.

 

Re everything else: Scotland is going to face many of the same issues if/when the UK effectively breaks up. With luck we will all get to join some little block of micro nations within whatever the EU has evolved into by that point.

 

Health education and prison structures would remain largely unchanged,

 

Higher education may need to be thought about a little bit more since we get a slight discount on our fees. Independence would probably move us into the international fees bracket which can mean fees of around £3,000 higher

 

When I was at Scumbag Poly IOM students were already charged international fees iirc

[manshimajin]

Re everything else: Scotland is going to face many of the same issues if/when the UK effectively breaks up. With luck we will all get to join some little block of micro nations within whatever the EU has evolved into by that point.

 

So presumably is England when it gains its independence from Scotland? I gather support for Scottish independence is running higher in England than in Scotland - according to The Economist a few months ago. Presumably south of the border they are saying 'the sooner the better' and may well be another source of information if/when the UK implodes.

 

International Relations may not be the most problematic issue - though Public Servants and Ministers would like this one the most because of 'perks' of overseas postings and overseas trips. Realistically what would the IOM want to do spending lot's of money having someone in New York to join the UN talkfest? Maybe the occasional visit? Brussels definitely the priority (when they are not all galivanting off adding to CO2 emissions nd global warming by moving the EU Parliament and Public Service to Strasbourg and back each month). Is London as important - or would it just be another European capital?

 

Depending on the status adopted I would have thought more important issues relate to Trade and Commerce (job creation), Fisheries and Agriculture (safeguarding resources), Social Welfare policies (if in EU), Currency (own, pound, euro), Taxation and Excise (Revenue generation and expenditure). We would also need to be sure that we were well covered on Health, Education, Energy and Transport.

 

There would also need to be very detailed consideration of the legislative process involved in further seperation and a good understanding of the timescale and up-skilling needed.

 

On the Defence front whilst I agree that there are minimal threats the one that we would need to manage effectively is the patrolling of territorial waters - maybe good radar and a helicopter or two or a patrol boat.

 

Would we stay in the British Commonwealth? I vote 'no' to save money...and what happens to the poor old Lieutenant Governor (bye bye I suppose)?

[VinnieK]

When I was at Scumbag Poly IOM students were already charged international fees iirc

 

How long ago was that? Certainly for the last four years or so the Island and Channel Isles have had their own tariff set a couple of grand below the internationals (although significantly higher than home/EU students).

 

Congratulations on your university challenge victory over Footlights College, by the way.

[bluemonday]

I'd suggest that the CI have a better spread of options as they seem to have a thriving tourist industry as well as their financial environment.

[Skeddan]

Iceland has done pretty well from independence without having the same benefits as Jersey has. On the other hand the Cook Islands has offshore finance and tourism, but would not be viable - and so is in Free Association rather than independent. Options and advantages need to be looked at on a case by case basis.

 

How though would IoM get independence (or enter into a 'Free Association' as a possible alternative)? It is not listed as a NSGT with the UN. Until the question of its current constitutional status is answered - with who has sovereign title to IoM, then the notion of gaining independence is just pie in the sky. (Could the UK grant Gibraltar independence? - not if legal title to its sovereignty belongs to Spain - nemo dat - one cannot give what one does not own).

 

If sovereignty to IoM belongs to the Crown, then it is either in a political union - like Scotland and Wales (which it clearly isn't), or in a personal union (in which case Westminster has no power to legislate for IoM - which it does according to Kilbrandon). So while the Crown might have possession, the nature of the relationship suggests that the sovereignty does not actually belong to the Crown - in which case it cannot grant this independence. The chances of the UK agreeing to hand over a sovereignty it does not own would be pretty remote.

 

If you want to get the freehold to a property you do a bit of due diligence to check chain of title and who has legal ownership (the person in possession might only be a leaseholder with no right to sell). You might talk about 'right to buy' - but a leaseholder will not sell you the freehold because they don't actually own it. If independence is to be considered, then this issue of legal title to the sovereignty needs to be looked at.

[pongo]

When I was at Scumbag Poly IOM students were already charged international fees iirc

 

How long ago was that? Certainly for the last four years or so the Island and Channel Isles have had their own tariff set a couple of grand below the internationals (although significantly higher than home/EU students).

 

Congratulations on your university challenge victory over Footlights College, by the way.

 

Yes it was back in the mists of early history. These days it is known as the The University of Scumbagcestershire and has a crest.

[bluemonday]

Apropos Iceland, I believe their credit rating was lowered in May to Aa1 from Aaa by Moody's over concern that the government may have to cover liabilities at the nation's banks and rating on the foreign currency country ceiling for bank deposits was also reduced to Aa1.

Shortly before that, it was offered an emergency loan by the central banks of Denmark, Sweden and Norway to support the krona and avoid an economic collapse.

 

Probably won't be unique as the current economic climate unfolds but food for thought perhaps.