[BBC News] New £6.5m tower plan for airport

[Amadeus]

Can't we just buy an old aircraft carrier and bolt it to the end?

[Lee54]

To be honest, trying to compare it to the abortive Carlisle project is pure speculation, so of highly dubious value.

 

 

I have a copy of the original proposal for the Summerland / Derby Castle Swimming Pool complex drawn up by Lomas architects in 1963

 

Included in the details are like for like costings for similar projects in the UK.

 

This seems to make perfect sense, I mean you wouldn't buy anything these days without looking it up an a price comparison site so why should capital projects be any different ?

 

I would be interested to know what our hospital, incinerator etc would have cost in the UK and I'm willing to bet we paid about 50% more

 

As for our new Hospital this one is twice he size and halp the price.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa38...ag=artBody;col1

[triskelion]

To be honest, trying to compare it to the abortive Carlisle project is pure speculation, so of highly dubious value.

I have a copy of the original proposal for the Summerland / Derby Castle Swimming Pool complex drawn up by Lomas architects in 1963

Included in the details are like for like costings for similar projects in the UK.

This seems to make perfect sense, I mean you wouldn't buy anything these days without looking it up an a price comparison site so why should capital projects be any different ?

I would be interested to know what our hospital, incinerator etc would have cost in the UK and I'm willing to bet we paid about 50% more

I have no doubt you are right, at least in some respects. My point was more that the Carlisle project had been budgeted without proper consideration for planning requirements, and since it has now been shelved, it seems fairly apparent that there were some expensive changes needed to the orignal plans. As a result, we cannot assume the £35 million figure has any real value as an accurate comparison, as it is almost certainly not reflective of actual costs (not including over-runs).

 

The problem with comparing construction costs of hospitals and incinerators with the UK are several. Firstly, in this post-Thatcher age, many of these will be built and/or operated by the private sector. Many of the new hospitals in the UK have been built using PFI money. In the true spirit of the private sector, their aim will have been to minimise costs whilst maximising returns. Is that a suitable mantra for the provision of public services? Should our politicans raise taxes as high as possible whilst cutting public spending to a the lowest possible minimum?

 

Then of course there is the argument that 'you get what you pay for.' Should we always go for the cheaper option? Of course there is balance etc, but where in the UK is there a hospital equal to our own serving a population of less than 78 000?

 

And that is before considering the extra cost of construction on and transportation of goods to the Island. The promintory will have to be constructed at sea and largely at night so as to minimise interference with normal aviation services. Would that have been the case in Carlisle case?

[asitis]

Being a regular visitor I have seen the planning presentation, the scheme was to build a parallel runway to the existing one thereby not closing the airport. It was envisaged that the place would become a freight hub (I assume hence Stobarts money). I think the planning was more about objectors regarding noise and expansion rather than money.

[Cambon]

Can't we just buy an old aircraft carrier and bolt it to the end?

 

That is a good idea. I mean aircraft carriers are bound to be banned with the new safety issues surrounding short runways. Maybe we can pick one up cheap!

[manshimajin]

Then of course there is the argument that 'you get what you pay for.' Should we always go for the cheaper option? Of course there is balance etc, but where in the UK is there a hospital equal to our own serving a population of less than 78 000?

 

Possibly we are all missing the fundamental point - you have mentioned that 'you get what you pay for'. But is what we are paying for what we need?

 

This thread has demonstrated that larger jets as used by the major low cost carriers use Jersey's runway for scheduled services and it is shorter than Ronaldsway. To lenghten our runway will cost £22 million and sounds to be a case of 'whilst we have the builders in we might as well lengthen the runway'.

 

Safety - definitely yes. New control tower - perhaps. Longer runway - why?

[asitis]

This is not relevant but may be of interest regarding Carlisle. http://www.carlisleairport.co.uk/documents/Brochure.pdf

[triskelion]

Then of course there is the argument that 'you get what you pay for.' Should we always go for the cheaper option? Of course there is balance etc, but where in the UK is there a hospital equal to our own serving a population of less than 78 000?

 

Possibly we are all missing the fundamental point - you have mentioned that 'you get what you pay for'. But is what we are paying for what we need?

 

This thread has demonstrated that larger jets as used by the major low cost carriers use Jersey's runway for scheduled services and it is shorter than Ronaldsway. To lenghten our runway will cost £22 million and sounds to be a case of 'whilst we have the builders in we might as well lengthen the runway'.

 

Safety - definitely yes. New control tower - perhaps. Longer runway - why?

The runway needs to be longer in order to accomodate the enlarged RESAs.

[asitis]

If we accept that the aircraft the island NEEDS cannot operate with a declared slightly reduced runway then we need the extension. If we can operate within the current lengths and provide the necessary service then we dont, and the greatest if, is if the recommendation becomes mandatory. Mandatory would inflict this on a number of regional airports that could not do it either through lack of private finance or from having the physical space. What we need to consider is the proven NEED for the future and it would be my assertion especially given the predicted down turn in aviation and travel in general, through recession and fuel prices worldwide, that the islands needs could be served with what we have even if it has to be declared shorter.

[Max Power]

To be honest, trying to compare it to the abortive Carlisle project is pure speculation, so of highly dubious value.

 

 

I have a copy of the original proposal for the Summerland / Derby Castle Swimming Pool complex drawn up by Lomas architects in 1963

 

Included in the details are like for like costings for similar projects in the UK.

 

This seems to make perfect sense, I mean you wouldn't buy anything these days without looking it up an a price comparison site so why should capital projects be any different ?

 

I would be interested to know what our hospital, incinerator etc would have cost in the UK and I'm willing to bet we paid about 50% more

 

There does tend to be an inclination for costs to soar when similar projects are undertaken on the island which cost a lot less elsewhere.

 

A company I worked for wanted to relocate to a site outside Douglas (Retail business in a population of 80,000)

 

Cost of similar operation new build in site near Manchester, £2.5m

 

Cost quoted by well known firm of local builders who own the only piece of land zoned by the IOM Govt. £5.5m.

 

Obviously this is not a lucrative retail area and building and land costs do not relate to the market potential.

 

Consequently said firm closed its doors making 45 people redundant, left the island for good and told all their blue chip mates how difficult it was to flourish on the Isle of Man.

 

Not altogether related I know but an example of how we as an Island tend to be uncompetitive and accept whatever is thrown at us.

[manshimajin]

The runway needs to be longer in order to accommodate the enlarged RESAs.

Have just discovered that Jersey Airport also has a Runway Project. Thought that this might also be an interesting comparison as their runway is 150 feet shorter than Ronaldsway and they handle scheduled flights with larger jets than we do here. The information is at:

 

http://www.jersey-airport.com/index.asp?Na...mp;SubNavID=121

 

Use the buttons on the left for more information.

 

Some quotes:

 

Jersey Airport is to undergo a major programme of essential work to resurface and strengthen its runway, which has reached the end of its useful life. The work will be done overnight from 15 September 2008 until approximately 30 April 2009, although it is hoped the project will be completed before this date.....The work will involve re-profiling, resurfacing and strengthening of the runway to smooth out the high and low points as well as upgrading the runway lighting.

 

When the works have been completed, the runway will be reclassified as Code 4C. This is a classification system for aircraft and airfields based on the size of the aircraft using the airfield and length of runway available for use. Jersey Airport has been advised by the UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) that although the runway is long enough to handle the increasing number of aircraft type that fall into the 4C category it does need to provide the runway geometry that allows these types of aircraft to land safely and take-off in low visibility.

 

Q. What is the overall budget on this project?

 

A. An approved budget of £19.5 million has been allocated to the project. However, following negotiations with the appointed contractor the Project Managment Team is hoping to bring the overall costs down to around £17.2 million, which includes all design costs, repairs, materials and associated costs

 

They regularly handling 737s and A320s on their 150 foot shorter runway. The CAA reckon it is long enough for these bigger planes and will reclassify it as C4 once it is resurfaced and re-profiled. There is no mention of extending it as part of this project. Their work is based on CAA and ICAO standards for the planes they are handling. I assume that this must include an appropriate RESA.

 

So in the Channel Islands they are maintaining their capacity to handle larger planes on a shorter runway than Ronaldsway Their budget is currently £19.5 million (which they are hoping to negotiate down...). In the IOM with its longer runway we are going to spend £44 million and make our runway 634 feet longer than the Class C4 approved runway at Jersey Airport.

 

I still think comparisons are useful and raise interesting questions when it comes to use of our money by the Government and its Authorities.

[Albert Tatlock]

The work will be done overnight from 15 September 2008 until approximately 30 April 2009

Fook me - that's nearly as long as the night I went to see an opera.

[manshimajin]

The work will be done overnight from 15 September 2008 until approximately 30 April 2009

Fook me - that's nearly as long as the night I went to see an opera.

Was that the Flying Dutchman Manxman?

[triskelion]

Sigh. Most frustrating is that we can do nothing about it now.

 

Ways forward?

 

EDIT: I went back and read the Tynwald debate again. Its a really confusing issue.

[manshimajin]

Sigh. Most frustrating is that we can do nothing about it now.

 

Ways forward?

Migrate to the Channel Islands - they seem to know more about negotiating.