Our Fantastic Education System

[triskelion]

"Useless" is a very arbitary term though. A degree isn't necessarily the be all and end all of time at uni, and the idea that you need a degree related to your job is terribly old-fashioned.

 

Media studies always seems to get it in the neck, even though the actual course content can vary widely. To get decent marks you still need to put in a lot of work whatever the degree, but with BA's you are expected to work more under your own motivation that you are with the sciences and such. On a lot of courses you are expected to put in 5 hours for every contact hour. Obviously few do, but it seems unlikely those on engineering courses are constant grafters; certainly none of the ones I met were.

[WilDDog]

Albanian furniture design

Rofl, that is a joke, right?

 

Well done to your son for the hard work he must have put in, and to you and your wife for the encouragement you gave him.

 

What was the box he designed?

[Bombay Bad Boy]

Altairian Furniture Design

[VinnieK]

OK sorry about this but I need to moan about it.

 

This morning I have just returned from UCLAN to see my eldest son graduate with honours, yes I am very proud of him, but at the same time very angry. Why?

Well his ambition is to teach chemistry at A-Level or above standard, but could he find a University in UK to do it no, not because he didn't have the grades but because none had a course going in just Chemistry due to under subscription. So he had to do a year at Leeds doing microbiology whilst waiting for a place on Forensic Science and Chemistry combined decree, this was the only way he could attain the level he wanted.

 

Congratulations to your son, but this just isn't true. Bristol has very prestigious Chemistry single honours BSc and MSci programmes, and has had for years now. The same is true of, unsurprisingly, Imperial, UCL, and Manchester. It's true that some universities have closed their chemistry departments, and UCLAN might be the first university to start running a Chemistry course in 7 seven years, but a good number of other universities have been running Chemistry single honours for decades now and continue to do so.

 

With regards to "Micky Mouse" degrees, I was recently reading my mum's old UCCA handbook. On offer in the early 70's were such recently ridiculed courses (certainly when I was at A-Level) as "paper science" and "leather studies", from Leeds and Manchester no less, and I noticed a couple of sports science degrees at similarly respected institutions as well. For all the criticism levelled at supposed micky mouse degrees today, the only thing that seems to have changed since now and then are the universities that offer them.

[jimbms]

OK sorry about this but I need to moan about it.

 

This morning I have just returned from UCLAN to see my eldest son graduate with honours, yes I am very proud of him, but at the same time very angry. Why?

Well his ambition is to teach chemistry at A-Level or above standard, but could he find a University in UK to do it no, not because he didn't have the grades but because none had a course going in just Chemistry due to under subscription. So he had to do a year at Leeds doing microbiology whilst waiting for a place on Forensic Science and Chemistry combined decree, this was the only way he could attain the level he wanted.

 

Congratulations to your son, but this just isn't true. Bristol has very prestigious Chemistry single honours BSc and MSci programmes, and has had for years now. The same is true of, unsurprisingly, Imperial, UCL, and Manchester. It's true that some universities have closed their chemistry departments, and UCLAN might be the first university to start running a Chemistry course in 7 seven years, but a good number of other universities have been running Chemistry single honours for decades now and continue to do so.

 

With regards to "Micky Mouse" degrees, I was recently reading my mum's old UCCA handbook. On offer in the early 70's were such recently ridiculed courses (certainly when I was at A-Level) as "paper science" and "leather studies", from Leeds and Manchester no less, and I noticed a couple of sports science degrees at similarly respected institutions as well. For all the criticism levelled at supposed micky mouse degrees today, the only thing that seems to have changed since now and then are the universities that offer them.

I must admit I stand corrected my facts should have read "unless more students subscribe to the offered chemisty courses then next year only UCLAN will have a course not running in conjunction with another subject"

[jimbms]

Albanian furniture design

Rofl, that is a joke, right?

 

Well done to your son for the hard work he must have put in, and to you and your wife for the encouragement you gave him.

 

What was the box he designed?

Once they have been made you will see them on the roads near the the black tubes for traffic counting painted yellow replacing the existing grey boxes, the difference is they cost 25% of the manufactured box yet can take a susbstantial amount of impact and weight compared to the old ones, as you will see one was tested by resting a fully laden water tanker vehicle on it weighing over 20 tons without a single defect whereas the existing .... well they just would not exist after that

[jimbms]

"Useless" is a very arbitary term though. A degree isn't necessarily the be all and end all of time at uni, and the idea that you need a degree related to your job is terribly old-fashioned.

Find me one doctor, chemist, pharmicist, dentist, vet, advocate, quantum physisist, structuaral engineer, civil engineer, electrical engineer etc who didn't need a related degree. As you say the minor degrees are only realy an indication of capability to study, whereas specialist degrees are an indication in aptitude and study to a specific subject. IMHO a qualified tradesman who has done his/her apprenticeship has worked harder than some of these minor degree courses

[VinnieK]

I must admit I stand corrected my facts should have read "unless more students subscribe to the offered chemisty courses then next year only UCLAN will have a course not running in conjunction with another subject"

 

That's still pretty questionable. I know Bristol's course is very popular, popular enough certainly to have invested in brand new facilities a while back, same with all the other universities I mentioned (and a couple I didn't, such as Durham and Newcastle) in fact.

 

Sure departments have closed down, but those students who would have gone to those have instead bolstered the numbers of other universities, which have seen pretty healthy numbers (and even healthier funding) for the past decade, and probably always will do because they're at the top of their game and will always attract students, both from the UK and internationally. In fact it's because of this that UCLAN is able to open a new course - departments close resulting in the strongest and most popular departments being filled quickly, leaving a number of students without places than can be hoovered up by a shiny new department. The same holds true for mathematics, I remember reading recently about one of London's new universities opening up a maths department for exactly the same reason.

 

Anyway, congrats to your son and good luck to him! Unfortunately there's more hassle ahead! If he wants to teach at A-Level he'll probably have to take a PGCE (unless he's going into the private sector), and for higher he'll need a PhD. The kicker is that even if he gets the latter, he still wont be qualified to teach at A-Level without a PGCE on top of that - all in all, three or four years (maybe longer) plus one. Is he elligible for Manx funding? The UK funding bodies at postgrad level are, without exception, a pain in the arse.

[jimbms]

Unless they get the numbers it seems nearly every one of them wont have any first years on the courses next year and they are seriously struggling example Cambridge so far only 2 have applied.

Yes hes going to manchester September doing his PGCE, at least now he gets some pay for it instead of using Dad's ever decreasing wallet.

[VinnieK]

Unless they get the numbers it seems nearly every one of them wont have any first years on the courses next year and they are seriously struggling example Cambridge so far only 2 have applied.

Yes hes going to manchester September doing his PGCE, at least now he gets some pay for it instead of using Dad's ever decreasing wallet.

 

I'm just not convinced by the numbers. Last year Bristol's MSci single honours chemistry course received 1,124 applications for just 143 places. I imagine it's the same for most other departments as well. I'd love to see the numbers for Cambridge* as, even though it's early days yet, I can't quite believe them (2 at one particular college, maybe).

 

Also it has to be remembered that Oxbridge has always had a relatively lower ratio of applicants to places, partly because the application system is so wanky, student expectations or perceptions, and the simple fact that most Russel group institutions can boast departments that rival or surpass Oxbridge these days (and aren't stuck in the civic equivalent of a quaint Ye Olde Tea Shoppe) - a lot of talented students simply don't think they're worth the bother any more.

[Pat Ayres]

So, what are you moaning about, he still gets a dubious education at the expense of the IOM taxpayer, unlike my kids that needed to get a loan and will be repaying them for years to come.

If he's any good he'll manage to get the job he wants rather than just putting up with what life throws him, like the rest of us.

[jimbms]

So, what are you moaning about, he still gets a dubious education at the expense of the IOM taxpayer, unlike my kids that needed to get a loan and will be repaying them for years to come.

If he's any good he'll manage to get the job he wants rather than just putting up with what life throws him, like the rest of us.

Unfortunately your wrong, he is in the same position as your son in that we had not been here long enough so not only did we get no help from IOM govt but his uk student loan was reduced. But I fail to see how you can call any eduction dubious and nobody should put up with what life throws at them, instead get a bloody good bat and hit it back until you get what you make of life.

[SteveP]

You wonder why the UK government wants everybody in higher education doing 'noddy' degrees?

 

Simple. Students in full-time education do not appear in unemployment figures.

[manshimajin]

"Useless" is a very arbitary term though. A degree isn't necessarily the be all and end all of time at uni, and the idea that you need a degree related to your job is terribly old-fashioned.

Find me one doctor, chemist, pharmicist, dentist, vet, advocate, quantum physisist, structuaral engineer, civil engineer, electrical engineer etc who didn't need a related degree. As you say the minor degrees are only realy an indication of capability to study, whereas specialist degrees are an indication in aptitude and study to a specific subject. IMHO a qualified tradesman who has done his/her apprenticeship has worked harder than some of these minor degree courses

It depends on what you mean by a 'minor' courses and also on what particular skills are required in particular roles. Some jobs do need a specific degree - but others benefit from the abiity to 'think outside the box'. Countries need both. The British Empire benefitted enormously from both classical and science and engineering based university education.

 

In contrast many Communist countries produced excellent graduates in engineering, medicine and the sciences. They were not so good (or keen) at producing graduates in the 'questioning and analytical' disciplines. When I lived in Central Europe the results of this was that, even a few years ago, people were better at 'doing' than 'decision making'. The latter required more individual risk taking than the former - which required applying rules that had been learned. They were struggling hard to rectify this problem.

 

The same to a large extent also applied in Japan where people were educated according to 'rules'. This meant that if something untoward and unexpected happened they had much greater difficulty and stress in handling it than western educated people.

 

The danger for the UK is that if it does not produce enough scientists and engineers it will drift further towards a 'service' economy. But the other danger is producing a society that can only follow the rules. Is this why accountants ae so appalling at strategy?

[Drdimmer]

It doesn't help a childs perception when the term Engineer is not a protected title here, and as such Mechanics/Electricians/Plumbers often use the title Engineer also. What is more annoying is when a University undergraduate mentions they are studying Engineering for some one to turn around and say thats good, we always need people to fix boilers.