VinnieK Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 The pictures were taken over a short span of time, hence the guy on the phone in the two shots, no-one was very close to them and certainly not looking or gawping. The powers removed them quickly and with decency, no body bags but coffins. According to CNN, they have it on record that the bodies were there for an hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartT Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Hang on a minute, a newspaper feels it is entitled to express it's indignation at people continuing with their day as planned next to two already dead girls, while it actively exploits their death to sell papers. Maybe some people feel that the bystanders could have done more - what exactly? But who is more in the wrong - those people who ignored their deaths, or those who exploit them for commercial gain??.... Though as to those people who say that the spectators at the TT are nothing like the holidaymakers on the beach, I find it rather distasteful when they focus in on the crashes and decide to watch or take pictures or films of the helicopter taking critical riders to hospital. If they are so keen to get involved with the accidents, perhaps they could make themselves more useful and sign up as a marshal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinnieK Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Hang on a minute, a newspaper feels it is entitled to express it's indignation at people continuing with their day as planned next to two already dead girls, while it actively exploits their death to sell papers. By that logic any tragedy covered by the news (in whatever medium) is guilty of using it to sell papers/harvest viewers or listeners. As such we should have no more news. Ever. Apart from fluff stories about kittens up trees and rave reviews of school plays. Also, if you read more carefully you'll notice that the story the newspaper was running was not so much about the deaths of the girls with a little added indignation for good measure (I'm sure plenty of people drown in Italy every year without it being covered by the papers), but specifically about the reaction, or rather lack of one, of the surrounding people and the way Roma are generally being treated in Italy. Whether there was a link between the girls' ethnicity and the way the public reacted can be called into question (as Chinahand has done), but to say that the media are the real baddies in this story for "exploiting" death is so much adolescent waffle. Maybe some people feel that the bystanders could have done more - what exactly? This is a straw man. No one's even suggested that people should have done more, just that their reaction was unsettling; especially given the context of Italy's track record with the Roma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartT Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Hang on a minute, a newspaper feels it is entitled to express it's indignation at people continuing with their day as planned next to two already dead girls, while it actively exploits their death to sell papers. By that logic any tragedy covered by the news (in whatever medium) is guilty of using it to sell papers/harvest viewers or listeners. As such we should have no more news. Ever. Apart from fluff stories about kittens up trees and rave reviews of school plays. Also, if you read more carefully you'll notice that the story the newspaper was running was not so much about the deaths of the girls with a little added indignation for good measure (I'm sure plenty of people drown in Italy every year without it being covered by the papers), but specifically about the reaction, or rather lack of one, of the surrounding people and the way Roma are generally being treated in Italy. Whether there was a link between the girls' ethnicity and the way the public reacted can be called into question (as Chinahand has done), but to say that the media are the real baddies in this story for "exploiting" death is so much adolescent waffle. Maybe some people feel that the bystanders could have done more - what exactly? This is a straw man. No one's even suggested that people should have done more, just that their reaction was unsettling; especially given the context of Italy's track record with the Roma. I wasn't suggesting that the media isn't raising some important issues regarding Italy's attitude to the Romany, however there is an element of hypocracy in there. I presume they will be donating every penny of those particular editions which are not used to cover the cost of printing and wages to charities which represent the interests of minority groups????... However a lot of it is speculation anyway - they haven't produced any hard and fast evidence that all of the beachgoers were apathetic because the girls were Roma - I don't see any interviews with the beach goers sayin "Good I'm glad those gypo scum are dead" or anthing. They should at least have produced some hard evidence to support their belief that the apathy was down to race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinnieK Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I presume they will be donating every penny of those particular editions which are not used to cover the cost of printing and wages to charities which represent the interests of minority groups????... Criticising prejudice is not an activity that demands the critic donates every spare penny to the particular group being discriminated against. The mere fact that prejudice is inherently wrong is enough justification, and the fact that it's being condemned in public is in itself a service. You are not illuminating any hypocrisy here: were there any present it would involve demonstrating the same kind of prejudice that's being criticised. The very best you could accuse the newspaper of is "not putting its money where its mouth is", but, as I've just explained, that accusation doesn't stick either. I'm no great fan of the media by any means, but you're trying very hard to find in it a bogeyman that simply doesn't exist in this case. By all means challenge the accuracy of the story, but focusing entirely on the the papers' principals here and hackneyed accusations of hypocrisy are little more than a distraction from the substance of the issues at hand. However a lot of it is speculation anyway - they haven't produced any hard and fast evidence that all of the beachgoers were apathetic because the girls were Roma - I don't see any interviews with the beach goers sayin "Good I'm glad those gypo scum are dead" or anthing. They should at least have produced some hard evidence to support their belief that the apathy was down to race. Of course it was speculation, and a fair part of the piece is implicitly drawing a link between prejudice and apathy, but the fact remains that treatment of the Roma in Italy is a very serious cause for concern and some people find the reaction of those witnessing the girls being dragged from the sea disconcerting (I'm happy to assume that the indifferance of those at the scene were not motivated by a hatred of the Roma - that doesn't make that indifference much better though). Even if both of those things are not necessarly connected, they remain fair comment in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortalpuppet Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Nice bit of crime scene contamination, no cordon put up. How do dead people cover themselves up? Bah, should have read the guardian link first!! doh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeky boy Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 The fact that sunbathers were Italians and the bodies were Roma is not relevant The day after the tsunami in Thailand, holidaymakers from many nations were back on the beach while bodies from many nations lay nearby The picture from Italy has been interpreted by people with a point to make Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted August 17, 2008 Share Posted August 17, 2008 The story is covered in todays's Observer: Why Do The Italians Hate Us? A disturbing article quite frankly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleDiamond Posted August 17, 2008 Share Posted August 17, 2008 We had been looking forward to the holiday all year. The children were old enough now and so this time we would all be going. He always said that for those two weeks he felt . . . . alive. We had always recognised that when he was preparing for the trip. It used to start around the end of March and we all used to help. Cleaning the bike in the garage, with the radio on and drinking endless cups of tea. Looking back those were the best times - family and friends working together and chatting about the trip and past times. It was mostly chatting though. Loads of laughter and plenty of smiles. This time we would be going as a family so you can imagine how that garage was. All the photographs of the children sat on the bike as it was gradually built back up, told the same story of happiness, excitement and anticipation. The TV and computer and even the house must have felt so neglected in those weeks leading up to the trip! The day for leaving finally came. Every second remains with me. Packing the van, the motorway trip, the boat trip (do you remember your first trip on the Manx Boat!), the accommodation (God bless those people), the paddock, all the new friends who I felt I already knew because I had heard so much about them, the grandstand, the practices, the races. The bikes, the smell of oil, Douglas Promenade, the horse trams, the sea air, the excitement, all those people happy and on holiday. We were all so, so alive, and now we knew exactly what he meant. Every second remains with me. I think I said that already. And then nothing. He came home in The Box. It doesn't matter just now how or why. We had to stay there for a couple more days. Stunned and floating. Our world completely shattered. Every sense in my body seemed to be detached and it was as if each was at the end of a telescope turned backwards. How do you hear and feel from such an exaggerated distance? I don't know. But actually, from that moment some things stay very much with me. The racing continued. The commentary continued. The Carnival played on the promenade and everybody was still laughing and happy and on holiday. Nothing can stop a nice day at the TT. Why does the sun keep on shining? (a bit took out, see keyboarder's below. It isn't relevant to here.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyboarder Posted August 17, 2008 Share Posted August 17, 2008 How do I explain all this to the children? I really can't imagine how they were feeling and I can't bring myself to try and explain How indeed. I can't begin to imagine that they 'knew the risks'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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