Power Lost To Westminster?

[Albert Tatlock]

From MR: "President of Mec Vannin Bernard Moffatt says the Island may have handed over more power to Westminster without most people realising it. The government has signed a new international identity agreement with the UK to allow it to act on our behalf in the worldwide arena."

 

This seems to all hinge around - The UK will not act internationally on behalf of the Isle of Man without prior 'consultation' - versus - without the 'agreement' of the dependencies.

 

Has someone cocked up with copying and pasting this time, or is there more to this?

 

Edited to add link

 

 

 

 

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[Cronky]

I think this means that if the UK want to pursue a policy that has an impact on the Isle of Man then they may take note of our position and then completely ignore it.

 

Have a look at:

 

Michael Wills on the Isle of Man

 

Michael Wills said:

The Ministry of Justice, in which I am the Minister responsible for the Crown dependencies, plays a crucial role in Whitehall in mediating between the Government of the Isle of Man and other Government Departments that have an interest in these matters.

There's a lot in the word mediating .

 

I would argue this working practice allows the UK Civil Service, and the Home Office in particular, a stronger role in deciding which UK legislation we are pressured to adopt. Any UK legislation should have political oversight here in the Isle of Man. That means the active engagement of all MHK's and MLC's and not just the say so of the CSO.

[Chinahand]

Does anyone have a link to the actual agreements mentioned. These SHOULD be public documents - especially in this so called internet age - I think we are well past secret protocols, but then again we are talking about Comin ...

[WTF]

westminster has had the power for decades. they just allow the gullible among us the illusion of self rule. how long has it taken moffy to wake up??

[Albert Tatlock]

I've searched and can't find a thing. I have particular concerns because this could mean identity cards for the island through the (UK) backdoor - though not that worried as Gordon Broon's mob are currently looking as re-electable as Harold Shipman as chairman of the BMA.

[Gladys]

I've searched and can't find a thing. I have particular concerns because this could mean identity cards for the island through the (UK) backdoor - though not that worried as Gordon Broon's mob are currently looking as re-electable as Harold Shipman as chairman of the BMA.

I understood it to be wider than that.

[feegan]

Does anyone have a link to the actual agreements mentioned. These SHOULD be public documents - especially in this so called internet age - I think we are well past secret protocols, but then again we are talking about Comin ...

 

 

The document can be found o the IOM Gov website

 

http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/cso/iominternat...tyframework.pdf

[Albert Tatlock]

I've searched and can't find a thing. I have particular concerns because this could mean identity cards for the island through the (UK) backdoor - though not that worried as Gordon Broon's mob are currently looking as re-electable as Harold Shipman as chairman of the BMA.

I understood it to be wider than that.

I agree there are many possible ramifications...OECD etc. etc. etc.

[Chinahand]

Does anyone have a link to the actual agreements mentioned. These SHOULD be public documents - especially in this so called internet age - I think we are well past secret protocols, but then again we are talking about Comin ...

 

 

The document can be found o the IOM Gov website

 

http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/cso/iominternat...tyframework.pdf

 

I thought it was this, but was confused why Moffatt was bringing up something from January 2006 in August 2008 - boy doesn't MV work quickly!!

 

I think the most important point to make is covered quite explicitly in the document:

 

The UK has no democratic accountability in and for the Isle of Man which is governed by its own democratically elected assembly. In the context of the UK’s responsibility for the Isle of Man’s international relations it is understood that -

• The UK will not act internationally on behalf of the Isle of Man without prior consultation.

 

 

I realize language gets convoluted, but the UK legislating on ID cards etc is not an international relations issue (which only concern when the UK is acting for the IOM in relations with 3rd parties) and so ID cards etc are not covered in this agreement. The UK simply has no mandate to enforce these things on the Island - that said they are also at liberty to say we are doing this - you do it too, or face the consequences, but it would still be Tynwald innacting the legislation and not the UK. Real Politic rules ok!

 

The UK is responsible for our international relations it is interesting that it only says consultation - that does seem to be different from this document from August 2002 where consent is clearly used as well as consultation where the UK is doing things which affect the IOM.

 

[The] Islands are known to be particularly sensitive to the need to obtain their consent, in accordance with democratic principle, to any decision taken in the United Kingdom which has legal implications for them.

 

Almost all the Islands' domestic legislation is made by their own legislatures. the Department for Constitutional Affairs (DCA) examines such legislation in order that the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs and Lord Chancellor, as the Privy Counsellor primarily concerned with matters relating to the Islands, may advise the Privy Council whether Her Majesty in Council may properly be advised to make an assenting Order. ...

 

The Islands legislate for the territorial waters adjacent to them and for the airspace over their territories and over those territorial waters. ... t would be contrary to normal constitutional practice for [the UK Parliament] to [use its residual powers, if any, to legislate for the territorial waters adjacent to them and for the airspace over their territories and over those territorial waters] in matters that are domestic to the Islands. Occasionally, UK legislation is extended to the Islands by Order in Council after consultation with the Islands and with their consent.

[jimbms]

Chinahand, why does everything you reply to have to be such a long winded load of bollocks, yes sometimes it does require a long answer but not every time, please keep it short, sweet and easy to read

[VinnieK]

The UK simply has no mandate to enforce these things on the Island - that said they are also at liberty to say we are doing this - you do it too, or face the consequences, but it would still be Tynwald innacting the legislation and not the UK. Real Politic rules ok!

 

The UK is responsible for our international relations it is interesting that it only says consultation - that does seem to be different from

 

The passage you quoted only goes as far as to mention that we're particularly sensitive about being given the chance to consent to legislation, and that it would be against usual constitutional practice to legislate for our territorial waters. It's quite a weak statment with regards to the issue at hand, especially since it says nothing about issues where the UK deems its security to be at risk.

 

It's not impossible to imagine the UK government deciding that domestic security overrides regular constitutional procedure with regards to the crown dependencies, especially considering that it regards fighting the threat of terrorism as beyond the regular laws and procedures we have now. The UK government is also quick to point out that terrorism is an international phenomenon, often cutting across national borders: for (a hypothetical) example consider elements of a terrorist cell trained in Pakistan, operating in Britain and planning an attack elsewhere in the world. Given this it's plausible that the UK government would consider imposing ID cards on crown dependencies a legitimate act in view of it's domestic and international responsibilities.

 

I also think mandate is a much overused term these days. In our case parliament requires no mandate, it has the power to legislate for the Isle of Man and we must always remember that the practice of consultation (which can be conducted and subsequently ignored if need be) and consent is a traditional indulgence, not a firm constitutional requirement.

[Slim]

Chinahand, why does everything you reply to have to be such a long winded load of bollocks, yes sometimes it does require a long answer but not every time, please keep it short, sweet and easy to read

 

Like: Bleat?

[manshimajin]

[quote name='VinnieK' date='Aug 4 2008, 05:54 PM' post='344756'

It's plausible that the UK government would consider imposing ID cards on crown dependencies a legitimate act in view of it's domestic and international responsibilities.

However much a foreign government may consider it a 'legitimate act' would the Manx Government readily consent to having ID Cards imposed if it meant political suicide? I am a little unsure how you can impose them unless you have Manx Govt support. Would the UK Government not let us enter UK territory unless we had ID Cards?

 

This may all be hypothetical anyway as Scotland is due its referendum in 2010 and compulsory ID Cards are scheduled for 2013 or 2014 I think. There may well not be a UK Government by then.

 

Incidentally what happens to the IOM's status if the UK Government becomes an England-only Government? Would we be an English Crown Dependency?

[oldmanxfella]

I thought it was this, but was confused why Moffatt was bringing up something from January 2006 in August 2008 - boy doesn't MV work quickly!!

 

I think the real issue was that Bernie Moffat had noticed that it had been over 4 weeks since either he or his daughter had been mentioned on Manx Radio or in the paper so they had to think of something and it just so happens this is it.

[Cronky]

However much a foreign government may consider it a 'legitimate act' would the Manx Government readily consent to having ID Cards imposed if it meant political suicide? I am a little unsure how you can impose them unless you have Manx Govt support. Would the UK Government not let us enter UK territory unless we had ID Cards?

 

I think it's done in a much more subtle and devious fashion, manshimajin. Tony Brown has said quite plainly, in Tynwald, that they are not going to introduce ID Cards here. However, We are now going to be subject to e-Borders so the UK are going to check your identity before you get in. As we are not a Sovereign State they cannot demand you get a passport. So, by default, there is a requirement for some form if ID Card. I hesitate to speculate how this might be done.

 

Just consider that the UK Home Office is a huge organisation. If they put their minds to running rings round the Isle of Man they will probably get away with it.