[BBC News] Freedom of Douglas for Cavendish

[Gagster]

The title is not correctly used on its own. Since 1399, the Kings and Lords of Mann existed in a position of feudality as vassals of the reigning King of England, and subsequently of Great Britain and the United Kingdom, who was the ultimate sovereign of the Island. This right of 'Lord Proprietor' was revested into the Crown by the Isle of Man Purchase Act 1765 and hence ceased to exist separately. However, for reasons of culture and tradition, the title Lord of Mann continues to be used. For these reasons, the correct formal usage, as used on the Isle of Man for the Loyal Toast, is The Queen, Lord of Mann.

 

So I'm affraid to break it to you jimbms, she IS The Queen, and as Queen she holds the title Lord of Mann. The Queen is regnant of 16 independent states and their overseas territories and dependencies, into which the Isle of Man falls.

 

If I can be so bold to remind you of your statement "Point of order there, she is Lord of Mann not the Queen", it is therefore YOU who is in fact WRONG.

[Sebrof]

Possibly you are unaware that the Queen is queen of Scotland and Wales, too. And the IOM, for that matter. And that God Save The Queen is the British national anthem, as well as being, at one time, the national anthem of about a quarter of the nations of the world.

 

Possibly you were unaware that the IOM does not have a "Queen". Constitutionally the English Queen is Lord of Mann which just proves you're talking completely through your arse on that one.

 

I think you will find the IOM is a British Crown dependency. The British Crown is embodied in HM the Queen, who is the head of state of the IOM. Whether you call her queen or lord doesn't affect her position.

 

When British athletes play in the Olympics, they are playing as Britons, not as little Englanders, wily Welshmen, scheming Scots, idle Irish or manky Manxmen.

 

Britons? That is course meaning British people - i.e people of British ethnicity - those being citizens of the United Kingdom, the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands, or of one of the British overseas territories.

 

Therefore somebody from Wales can represent Britain as they are UK citizens they are still, however, Welsh by birth (ie. born in Wales). Yet again what a load of irrelevant factually incorrect crap you have posted.

 

Anybody entitled to a British passport is a Briton. So I am not sure what your point is. Perhaps you didn't read what I said, or perhaps you are just confused.

 

This whole nonsense arose because the nitwits in charge decided to call the British Team, Team GB, which is factually incorrect. It's the British team, and as the IOM is British (like it or not!), that means the IOM is properly a part of it. If it were the UK team, the IOM would not properly be part of it.

 

S

[Sebrof]

It's a good job I'm not an ace sports person. If I won a gold medal at the Olympics, I'd find it a bit odd having 'god save the queen' played for my victory. I wonder if the Scottish and Welsh victors feel the same?

 

Possibly you are unaware that the Queen is queen of Scotland and Wales, too. And the IOM, for that matter.

No she bleeding well is NOT ! There is no Queen of the Isle of Man ! And no stupid comments regarding QUEERS please!

 

I am happy to leave you with a monopoly over stupid comments (though there are others here who may try to wrest it from you), and I trust you have now been educated as to the position of the Queen in relation to the island.

 

S

 

Edit to add this link: http://www.gov.im/isleofman/constitution.xml

[b4mbi]

whatever happened to King Dave ?

[Gagster]

whatever happened to King Dave ?

 

Viewers on the Isle of Man will be able to "press the red button" at 3pm on Christmas Day - and I'm sure he'll be able to tell you what's been happening!!!!

[jimbms]

The title is not correctly used on its own. Since 1399, the Kings and Lords of Mann existed in a position of feudality as vassals of the reigning King of England, and subsequently of Great Britain and the United Kingdom, who was the ultimate sovereign of the Island. This right of 'Lord Proprietor' was revested into the Crown by the Isle of Man Purchase Act 1765 and hence ceased to exist separately. However, for reasons of culture and tradition, the title Lord of Mann continues to be used. For these reasons, the correct formal usage, as used on the Isle of Man for the Loyal Toast, is The Queen, Lord of Mann.

 

So I'm affraid to break it to you jimbms, she IS The Queen, and as Queen she holds the title Lord of Mann. The Queen is regnant of 16 independent states and their overseas territories and dependencies, into which the Isle of Man falls.

 

If I can be so bold to remind you of your statement "Point of order there, she is Lord of Mann not the Queen", it is therefore YOU who is in fact WRONG.

I think you will find her title of Queen is in the UK she also holds several other title one of them being Lord of Mann, she can use the title queen here but her only official one is Lord of Mann. The use of her title of queen is only out of respect not official.

[Sebrof]

You mean Britain, not Great Britain. The latter is simply the big island, whilst Britain is a synonym for the UK. But although Manxies are not part of the UK, they are nonetheless British (look at your passport)

 

I'm pretty sure if you're classed as fully manx (3 generations can be traced back as being born here or manx in whatever way) then you aren't classed as british, and have a special stamp on your passport declaring it (a little of topic sorry)

 

Not according to the Manx government. From the website:

 

Q How do I become a Manx citizen?

A You can’t. Manx people are actually British citizens deriving their nationality from the provisions of the British Nationality Acts.

Q How do I get a Manx passport?

A You can’t. There is actually no such thing as a "Manx" passport. The Isle of Man Passport Office issues British passports to British citizens and British subjects resident in the Isle of Man, or, to British citizens born in the Isle of Man but resident in the United Kingdom.

 

S

[Gagster]

The title is not correctly used on its own. Since 1399, the Kings and Lords of Mann existed in a position of feudality as vassals of the reigning King of England, and subsequently of Great Britain and the United Kingdom, who was the ultimate sovereign of the Island. This right of 'Lord Proprietor' was revested into the Crown by the Isle of Man Purchase Act 1765 and hence ceased to exist separately. However, for reasons of culture and tradition, the title Lord of Mann continues to be used. For these reasons, the correct formal usage, as used on the Isle of Man for the Loyal Toast, is The Queen, Lord of Mann.

 

So I'm affraid to break it to you jimbms, she IS The Queen, and as Queen she holds the title Lord of Mann. The Queen is regnant of 16 independent states and their overseas territories and dependencies, into which the Isle of Man falls.

 

If I can be so bold to remind you of your statement "Point of order there, she is Lord of Mann not the Queen", it is therefore YOU who is in fact WRONG.

I think you will find her title of Queen is in the UK she also holds several other title one of them being Lord of Mann, she can use the title queen here but her only official one is Lord of Mann. The use of her title of queen is only out of respect not official.

 

No jimbms, wrong yet again! As I've already stated - the correct formal usage, as used on the Isle of Man for the Loyal Toast, is The Queen, Lord of Mann.

 

You should also know that the guys in Government here have to swear their oathes of allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth as that is her OFFICIAL title. The exact wording used in Tynwald being "I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God." The title Lord Of Mann is not used during this process.

[ponderer]

Anyway, to get back to the subject of the thread (boring!) I'm sure that the Queen, Lord of Mann (or is it just officially Lord of Mann?) the Governor who represents her (or does he represent the UK Government?) over here and all Manx citizens (actually correctly 'British Citizens' who are holders of 'European Union, British Islands, Isle of Man' Passports as distributed by the Isle of Man Passport Office - or whatever)...

 

...are jumping up and down with joy that, not only has Cav been given the Freedom of Douglas, but he has won 4 stages of Le Tour and now the first 2 stages of the Tour of Ireland!

[conradthewoollyllama]

Not according to the Manx government. From the website:

 

Q How do I become a Manx citizen?

A You can’t. Manx people are actually British citizens deriving their nationality from the provisions of the British Nationality Acts.

Q How do I get a Manx passport?

A You can’t. There is actually no such thing as a "Manx" passport. The Isle of Man Passport Office issues British passports to British citizens and British subjects resident in the Isle of Man, or, to British citizens born in the Isle of Man but resident in the United Kingdom.

 

S

 

I didn't say there was a manx passport. Just that you have a stamp on your regular passport. This is true, as i checked it out and one of my friends has it, as do the rest of her family.

Maybe it doesn't apply now, but it did when she was issued her last passport afew years back.

 

If you can't be classed as a Manx citizen then why are we referred to as Manx? Surely if there was no such thing we would be termed something else?

 

Edit: sorry ponderer. Back on to topic we shall go!

[ponderer]

Meanwhile, for those who aren't regular readers...

 

'Cavendish at Tour of Missouri!!! What a Coup!'

 

is the headline in the St Louis Post - Despatch. "This is Huge!" writes Dave Luecking...

 

Shame the press release calls Cav 'British'. But then a large numbers of readers of the St Louis Post and Despatch probably aren't sure where 'Britain' is - and he is the only British rider in the race from what I can see. And in any case a large number of writers in this thread aren't too sure about Britishness either (British citizen, British Isles, British Islands, Great Britain - just relieved we havne't yet had a reference to Little Britons...)!

 

Perhaps if he wins a stage in Missouri perhaps the Manx Tourist Board press office could get on to dave Luecking and brief him. Is there a World Manx branch in St Louis? If so lets have a whip round to send them a flag they can wave at the finish....

 

Allez Cav. (PS For the outcome of Stage 3 - see the Tour of Ireland thread in Leisure and Sport...

[Albert Tatlock]

Meanwhile, for those who aren't regular readers...

I bet you've sent him a lock of your hair by now.

[ponderer]

Meanwhile, for those who aren't regular readers...

I bet you've sent him a lock of your hair by now.

 

 

Its not true! And in any case you're only jealous Tatlock! Go find the Number 8 bus to Foxdale...

[Albert Tatlock]

Meanwhile, for those who aren't regular readers...

I bet you've sent him a lock of your hair by now.

Its not true! And in any case you're only jealous Tatlock! Go find the Number 8 bus to Foxdale...

Well being his number one fan, I certainly think you deserve a place on his open bus tour when it happens, which it will soon I'm sure.

 

 

.

[Skeddan]

The title is not correctly used on its own. Since 1399, the Kings and Lords of Mann existed in a position of feudality as vassals of the reigning King of England, and subsequently of Great Britain and the United Kingdom, who was the ultimate sovereign of the Island. This right of 'Lord Proprietor' was revested into the Crown by the Isle of Man Purchase Act 1765 and hence ceased to exist separately. However, for reasons of culture and tradition, the title Lord of Mann continues to be used. For these reasons, the correct formal usage, as used on the Isle of Man for the Loyal Toast, is The Queen, Lord of Mann.

 

So I'm affraid to break it to you jimbms, she IS The Queen, and as Queen she holds the title Lord of Mann. The Queen is regnant of 16 independent states and their overseas territories and dependencies, into which the Isle of Man falls.

 

If I can be so bold to remind you of your statement "Point of order there, she is Lord of Mann not the Queen", it is therefore YOU who is in fact WRONG.

 

Gagster - prove this.

 

Kings of Mann were under the suzerainty of Norway, then Scotland, then England. Suzerainty is not the same as sovereignty (as per even the earliest authorities on international law such as Vattel), and the reigning monarch of England and subsequently the UK was not the 'utlimate sovereign of the Island'. Read the 1610 Act and you will see that what you claim here is nonsense.

 

The rights of the King's of Mann (who styled themselves 'Lords of Mann') were not 'revested' nor were they purchased (other than perhaps some minor leases in land). If you think this is the case, please substantiate the claim.

 

People in IoM can call the Queen whatever they like when drinking beer, making toasts or having a cup of tea. They could call her Queen of Sheba, but it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference as far as legal rights are concerned. Even if Manx officials called her the Archbishop of Canterbury it wouldn't make it so (nor would the Queen be under any obligation to correct them).

 

Show me ONE official record (like a statutory instrument) where the Queen styles herself Lord of Mann. (Or even one where she is said to be Queen of Mann)

 

The Queen is Head of State of 16 countries (UK + 15 Commonwealth Countries) If she were the head of state of IoM, this would be 17 countries, IoM would be a member of the Commonwealth, and Queen in Council would have no power to impose legislation without Tynwald.

 

That said, there isn't any doubt that the Isle of Man is a possession of the Crown.

 

To show the faulty reasoning you are using to draw unfounded conclusions, consider this: When Iraq invaded Kuwait, Kuwait became a possession of Iraq, and the Iraqi president held the sovereignty defacto by virtue of effective control. While Kuwait was under occupation Iraq could pass ordinances and make laws necessary for order and good government, but it did not make Saddam Hussein it's head of state. Even if lots of Kuwaitis had 'loyally toasted' Saddam as their Head of State, it wouldn't make it so.

 

You telling other people they are 'WRONG' doesn't make it so either. If you care to differ with what I've said, then front up with something to back this up. You never know, you might be able to show something I've overlooked.