[BBC News] Banned pitbull seized on island

[Heathen]

The sooner this is resolved the better as I might stop getting phone calls asking for Sara.

[jimbms]

My 6 month old Yorkshire Terrier killed an adult Rottweiler on Douglas beach last year, should he be put down

Did he get stuck in it's throat?

[Celt]

I don't think Champ is a Pit Bull, from the looks of his face he's too short & wide in the muzzle, Pit's are more staffy looking, longer and more narrow in the face, that's why people call them "irish staffys" where as Champ appears to have a more of Dogue de Dordeaux or Mastiff cross type face, who ever was originally sold the dog was probably told he was a Pit Bull because they were willing the pay some stupid amount for a Pit Bull not actually knowing what one look likes.

 

Just using this quote as i can't be arsed scrolling through the rest, but it roughly points out my reply.

 

Most " Fighting Dogs " found in the UK usually come from the EU, then through Ireland. Mostly from the Netherland/Nodic regions.

 

They get a Breed/Export licence by stating it is a Staffie type crossed with a Lab. As they look very similar at a young age, it can fool even to best of the entry port vets. Along with fake or dodgy Vets papers, no problem bringing them into any country. However, it's a Pitbull type dog. It's big money to the dog fighting scum.

 

From Ireland, it's just a short trip on the boat to the UK.

 

If Champ was mine and i had to get rid off it, Ireland would be the last place i would look to re-home it in case it fell into the hands of the human shoites that would either breed for fighting or fight it.

 

On the other hand, many countries, including many States in the USA, would not just kill it becuase of it's breed but look to see if it had any fight marks on it. If it had, it's put to sleep. If not, it's put up for re-homing in a suitable place, if it's suitable being the key issue.

 

They key is though, " A Suitable Place " . As i've said, i don't think Ireland is as good place to send him. However, is there not a Suitable Place to be found on the IOM?

 

There's plenty of farms and such about, where Collies are kept and i think they're more likely to bite than any other dog apart from German Shepherds/Alsations, who have the worst dog bite rate in Britian. These, Collies, are kept away from the public. Could someone there not give the dog a chance? The German Shepherds are used by many forces so it will never get banned.

 

And before all the Collie owners start giving out, ask any Shepherd about the Collie and they'll tell you they're the next thing to a wolf. Stop giving it mental excersice and agility games and it will go nutz.

 

I still think the owner of Champ is more nutz than the dog but as i've said before, why should the dog be blamed for the ignorance or attitude of it's owner.

 

The dog doesn't know it's illegal, it can't bloody read for christ sake.

 

At the end off the day, the UK outlawed these breedtypes becuase of the death rate of the victims, yet the IOM has never had one but follows suit. Can the IOM Judicury not apply common sense when asked by the people they're supposed to protect. Where we, the public, look to them for guidance as to right or wrong? Maybe i read to many S/F books

 

The only difference between this type dog and any other is not if it will bite or not, but on it's bite pattern. In the right enviroment, have one. If you can't keep it in that enviroment don't. And that's for any dog. If you can't keep a dog properly, get a goldfish.

 

But then a " Staffie " and a " Pitbull " both have the same bite pattern. The Pitbull is or can be abit heavier and more muscle.They potentially have the same temprement at birth, however, due to it's the owner who changes it into a house dog/pet or a killing machine, the end result is different. It's not usually the dog as even a fighting dog trainer which can't train it becuase it's nutz, it dies.

 

Siberian Husky still seem to be the fashion statement of dogs atm, however i very much doubt if many people/owners even knew/know about the breed.

[WTF]

They key is though, " A Suitable Place " . As i've said, i don't think Ireland is as good place to send him. However, is there not a Suitable Place to be found on the IOM?

 

 

its not about 'suitable', it's about LEGAL. perhaps you should have been arsed to read the thread?

[Gladys]

A bit harsh WTF, I wouldn't want to read through 40 odd pages of predictable posts.

 

In defence of Celt, from what I have seen of his posts he knows dogs and so I respect his view.

 

As for the picky point you make, suitability must inlcude legality - if it ain't legal it is hardly suitable!

[Chinahand]

suitability must inlcude legality - if it ain't legal it is hardly suitable!

That's the nub of the debate isn't it. Scottish Terrier et al say that it is wrong to have a blanket ban - a subset of perfectly suitable dogs are caught by the ban (pitbulls which they claim aren't intrinsically dangerous) and other unsuitable dogs are not restricted and so can still go on to maim etc.

 

I'm not particularly convinced by the argument as I don't think you can screen dogs for suitability, as you cannot predict all the situations where things could go wrong, so there has to be a certain arbitaryiness in any restrictions/suitability test.

 

We have dangerous dog legislation to deal with problem legal dogs, and a ban on the types of dogs which have been shown to be the greatest risk. Seems to me the right way to go.

[Sebrof]

At the end off the day, the UK outlawed these breedtypes becuase of the death rate of the victims, yet the IOM has never had one but follows suit.

 

It is well-documented that these dogs are killers. But you want to wait until one kills somebody here before you do anything. In other words, you are putting the lives of dogs before those of humans.

 

The only difference between this type dog and any other is not if it will bite or not, but on it's bite pattern. In the right enviroment, have one. If you can't keep it in that enviroment don't. And that's for any dog. If you can't keep a dog properly, get a goldfish.

 

You're getting closer. The sort of person who makes a good dog-owner doesn't want to own one of these dogs. They are almost exclusively owned by people who are generally quite incapable of looking after them properly.

 

But saying, "well, let's licence dog owners" is putting the cart before the horse. If we don't have these breeds to start with, we don't have to introduce yet another tier of bureaucracy.

 

S

[WTF]

suitability must inlcude legality - if it ain't legal it is hardly suitable!

That's the nub of the debate isn't it. Scottish Terrier et al say that it is wrong to have a blanket ban - a subset of perfectly suitable dogs are caught by the ban (pitbulls which they claim aren't intrinsically dangerous) and other unsuitable dogs are not restricted and so can still go on to maim etc.

 

I'm not particularly convinced by the argument as I don't think you can screen dogs for suitability, as you cannot predict all the situations where things could go wrong, so there has to be a certain arbitaryiness in any restrictions/suitability test.

 

We have dangerous dog legislation to deal with problem legal dogs, and a ban on the types of dogs which have been shown to be the greatest risk. Seems to me the right way to go.

 

 

there are a few 'banned' animals in the wildlife act that appear less dangerous than pitbulls seem to prove on a regular basis in the UK. for example ostriches!! they are banned overhere, but i haven't seen on the front page of the sun 'ostrich kills baby'

 

i can see how having banned breeds is not an ideal situation, but if by enforcing the ban THAT IS ALREADY THERE on 1 breed ( that there are not hundreds of the type around here anyway ) out of a 100 breeds you can almost halve the risk to the populus, seems a reasonable trade in choice over risk. it isn't like folks are trying to make them extinct, just not allowed here. for well documented reasons. if you want to be living with something that can turn nasty at a moments notice for no apparent reason, get a WIFE.

[John Wright]

WTF you misunderstand our legislation, so does Chinahand and Gladys

 

Ostriches are banned from importation, they are not illegal once here and licences can be given in certain circumstances. I go to Liverpooll and buy a fertile Ostrich egg and bring back and incubate and its born here! Oops I can keep it.

 

Same with pit bulls. Lets say a dog was misidentified as a pup and allwoed in, but as it grew it became clear it ws a pit bull type, or lets say the pup got in as an embryo in a host mum bitch and was born here, our legislation does not make it illegal or prohibit it from being kept, we have no Dangerous Dogs act, in fact it cannot be put down due to its breed under IOM Law, probably, it may not even be within the powers of the DAFF to seize it as there is so offence of having an illegal animal, just of importing it. So assuming Champ brought in by person A who then gives it to person B who then has it legally, I think DAFF are stumped, which is why nice Mr Callister MLC hasn't instructed anyone to administer the leathal injection yet, he may not even have the power to deport it anywhere

[Sebrof]

If you want to be living with something that can turn nasty at a moments notice for no apparent reason, get a WIFE.

 

 

I suppose that the attraction of pitbulls is that they are much cheaper to run, which is why they are popular with the unemployed and unemployable.

 

S

[WTF]

WTF you misunderstand our legislation, so does Chinahand and Gladys

 

Ostriches are banned from importation, they are not illegal once here and licences can be given in certain circumstances. I go to Liverpooll and buy a fertile Ostrich egg and bring back and incubate and its born here! Oops I can keep it.

 

Same with pit bulls. Lets say a dog was misidentified as a pup and allwoed in, but as it grew it became clear it ws a pit bull type, or lets say the pup got in as an embryo in a host mum bitch and was born here, our legislation does not make it illegal or prohibit it from being kept, we have no Dangerous Dogs act, in fact it cannot be put down due to its breed under IOM Law, probably, it may not even be within the powers of the DAFF to seize it as there is so offence of having an illegal animal, just of importing it. So assuming Champ brought in by person A who then gives it to person B who then has it legally, I think DAFF are stumped, which is why nice Mr Callister MLC hasn't instructed anyone to administer the leathal injection yet, he may not even have the power to deport it anywhere

 

at what point does an animal being imported turn into being here?? once its off the boat? once its out the sea terminal? when?? despite what sarah says about the lack of knowledge of where it came from 'dean' is claimed as asking and being told it was ok for a pitbull. as such he is likely the 'importer'?? if you can sneak something in and keep it from the relevant authority even in plain sight, when is it too late for them to deal with it?? we keep hearing it has to stay here or die, people concentrate on its death, but there is nothing to stop it being shipped to a legal location. the wildlife act does not seem to able to allow an exemption or licence for joe public to keep one?? death is not the final option as we keep hearing from the bleeding hearts who always seem to arrive at that conclusion. what would be the fate of crocodile if it was fetched in and found some time later? it would be sent to a suitable legal location at a guess, and not turned into handbags by DAFF. i may misunderstand the legislation, but its obvious point is to keep that breed OFF the island. i would say, that like most legislation overhere, that it is probably poorly drafted and not defined appropriately. i'm sure it is not envisaged that if you can get anything here at all, it is then ok for it to stay cos DAFF can't get rid of it in their craply worded legislation. look out for pitbulls being parachuted into pully at night at which point no one will know where they came from or who dropped it, but i found it so i'm keeping it and it can stay??? not really going to happen is it?? what do you think the legislation that i misunderstand is SUPPOSED to do??

[John Wright]

just re read my post, it could get here legally by being born here

 

In common law a thing is generally legal unless it is specifically made illegal so

 

It was legal to own and import pit bulls and ostriches. You make it illegal to import but forget to make it illegal to keep, you get an anomaly You cannot bring them in, but once they atere here the legislation does not provide. That means they are legal.

 

Of course the drfatsman thought if there were none here and he stopped them coming in.... but that is not how it works and there are ways around it.

[Bananaman]

if you want to be living with something that can turn nasty at a moments notice for no apparent reason, get a WIFE.

 

 

Exactly. I mean what's wrong with weeing in the kitchen sink when your toilet is all the way upstairs.

 

 

 

[jimbms]

if you want to be living with something that can turn nasty at a moments notice for no apparent reason, get a WIFE.

 

Ah so you married a redhead as well as I. Know exactly what you mean

[WTF]

just re read my post, it could get here legally by being born here

 

In common law a thing is generally legal unless it is specifically made illegal so

 

It was legal to own and import pit bulls and ostriches. You make it illegal to import but forget to make it illegal to keep, you get an anomaly You cannot bring them in, but once they atere here the legislation does not provide. That means they are legal.

 

Of course the drfatsman thought if there were none here and he stopped them coming in.... but that is not how it works and there are ways around it.

 

 

ok, but the facts seem to be that dean bought this dog in from ireland, hence it is here illegally after being illegally imported. refering to circumstances of things that may have been born here is not really part of the current situation, it would seem it was fetched over illegally. so back to MY post, as it HAS been fetched in illegally from ireland, how long does it have to have been here for it NOT to able able to be dealt with DAFF?? just to clarify again, this is not about ANOTHER set of cicumstances that could result in that type off dog being here