[BBC News] Banned pitbull seized on island

[Skeddan]

Skeddan you managed that analysis of possibilities without using the word 'allegedly'. Well done.

Thanks

 

BTW I put it in a new thread because it isn't really about Pitbulls, but about legal profession - albeit in this case.

 

The best I can make of it is that the Petition of Doleance was a no-hoper from the start, but used as a delaying tactic.

 

IMO even that raises issues. It seems an enormously wasteful and expensive approach, IMO this would be an abuse and misuse of the Petition of Doleance. From what I gather DAFF have now taken it upon themselves to try to find Champ a home in Ireland, and these tactics may have been used to leverage this so taxpayer now foots the bil for rehoming Champ. AFAIK DAFF MSPCA etc. may well have given such an extension anyway if sought - especially if a fraction of the funds collected were applied to paying for keeping Champ. Even the best that I can make of it I'm afraid strikes me as an 'abuse of process'.

 

That of course might well be perfectly acceptable and this kind of thing may be quite normal in the Manx legal system. I have to presume it is. If so, then wouldn't one hope for a less wasteful and legally expensive approaches (e.g mediation) which does not require such tricks and games.

 

So my take on it is that this perhaps illustrates how Manx legal system may have burgeoned into one whose practices are geared to such contortions and games- one in which legal professionals are 'creaming it' and lining their pockets through such practices (legally, legitimately and in accordance with professional conduct).

 

Double, double toil and trouble.

 

Look at recent cases where the lawyers have been the biggest winners. Those getting a settlement didn't even cover costs. It was all bashing and so on - trying to win-lose rather than trying to get resolution. Effectively a system which promotes problem of prisoner's dilemma, with lawyers getting rich out of working to provide a suboptimal solution.

 

Donations for Champ may have gone to lawyers(?) Taxpayer has to pay for Champ to be rehomed. What's the value-added over a mediation solution where donations would have gone to pay for Champ to be rehomed? As I see it, not a lot - most of it is just siphoning off donations and taxpayers money to line pockets.

 

So not just tattooed mongs who might get short changed. It's everyone (except the lawyers). BTW I understand John Wright has been active in trying to promote mediation - something that IMO deserves a great deal more attention.

[Chinahand]

As far as I am aware a lawyer is an agent of the client. Even if the lawyer's advice to the client is not to proceed with a certain action, if the client insists the lawyer will carry out their instructions.

 

If it is the courts opinion this is wasting court time they can throw out the case and I believe in serious examples of this take action against the client.

 

If the client can show that it was the lawyer acting improperly then the court can accept that (in some sort of mitigation) and then it is a matter for the Law Society.

 

How this all relates to the current case isn't clear, but Skeddan you have a certain tendency to go very deep, very quickly with your political/social/legal analyses of this Island, I am not convinced it is always necessary.

 

A woman kicked up a fuss with a dog - it went to court - the court case was dropped. I think it is difficult to draw many conclusions about the state of the manx legal system from this.

 

I believe a majority of cases which start in court are eventually settled out of them - take the little local difficulty between a builder and an Onchan chemist's wife. The court may ratify any settlement, and legal mediation is an important skill which the courts approve of, but it is reasonably rare for a civil case be entirely settled by a court judgement, so I don't believe Champ v. DAFF or whatever is so exceptional.

[John Wright]

The Petition may have been withdrawn for many resaons, it may not have been brought incorrectly or by a money grabbing lawyer

 

first, if the money ran out

 

second she may have had legal aid which as then withdrawn

 

third the Petition may have acheived it object

 

I think its number 3. I do not know. I come to the conclusion because

 

the owner wanted Champ kept alive, it is now announced he will not be put down and government is to re house in Ireland. Result, no need to go further.

 

In speite of what Skeddan has posted the law here is not clerar. The dog is in all probability a banned import. However in the Act and regulations there is no power to put down a dog imported in breach, the power is to fine the importer.

 

We do not have a Dangerous Dogs Act, in the UK the dog could be put down under that for being the wrong breed

 

The question then is under the current Manx legislation, which is the same as that in England pre dangerous Dogs Act, can a dog be put down just because it is a pit bull type and thus dangerous, Skeddan says yes, i say no. I say to get a court order to have it put down it will not be suffiecient to show it is a pit bull and inherently dangerous, but that you must show it is actually dangerous by something it has done. I am not aware it has done anything so it cannot be put down. This was what the law was in England pre dangerous Dogs Act and the law in England had to be changed to allow destruction based on banned breed. If it had been otherwise no change would have been necessary

 

Don't blame l;awyers if the legislation is a mess, blame the politicians who pass it or not.

[Cret]

Well I hope the silly bint is having to contribute towards Champ's relocation. If not I think it's a pretty bad waste of taxmoney given the monumental fuss around the whole farce.

[Silentbob]

As far as I am aware a lawyer is an agent of the client. Even if the lawyer's advice to the client is not to proceed with a certain action, if the client insists the lawyer will carry out their instructions.

 

If it is the courts opinion this is wasting court time they can throw out the case and I believe in serious examples of this take action against the client.

 

If the client can show that it was the lawyer acting improperly then the court can accept that (in some sort of mitigation) and then it is a matter for the Law Society.

 

How this all relates to the current case isn't clear, but Skeddan you have a certain tendency to go very deep, very quickly with your political/social/legal analyses of this Island, I am not convinced it is always necessary.

 

A woman kicked up a fuss with a dog - it went to court - the court case was dropped. I think it is difficult to draw many conclusions about the state of the manx legal system from this.

 

I believe a majority of cases which start in court are eventually settled out of them - take the little local difficulty between a builder and an Onchan chemist's wife. The court may ratify any settlement, and legal mediation is an important skill which the courts approve of, but it is reasonably rare for a civil case be entirely settled by a court judgement, so I don't believe Champ v. DAFF or whatever is so exceptional.

 

 

It could only achieve its objective if it actually made it to court, since it was withdrawn before this, I would have assumed it was because the petition itself was either deemed inadmissable, or that as you said, the money ran out.

 

Either way, it still does not answer the question of what will happen to the 'Mugford Millions' that were collected??

 

(Note, it is probably nowhere near that amount, but it had a ncie ring to it)

[manshimajin]

Either way, it still does not answer the question of what will happen to the 'Mugford Millions' that were collected??

 

(Note, it is probably nowhere near that amount, but it had a ncie ring to it)

 

IOMToday

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 06, 2008 14:16: HI just to clarify that we were thinking of donating the money partly to the MSPCA and partly towards the ladies vets bills whose poodle was attacked……which I think would be greatly appreciated on her part…thankyou!!!

SARA

[John Wright]

I had missed that a poodle had been attacked, was this by Champ?

[%age]

Don't blame l;awyers if the legislation is a mess, blame the politicians who pass it or not.

 

I was involved in one case where amazingly a Deemster just ignored what the law stated and just choose what he thought it should be.

 

Nothing to do with interpretation or proportionality or any of those wooly words the Manx legal system just loves.

 

Just plain ignored the law and made something up. Farcical.

[Jimcalagon]

I had missed that a poodle had been attacked, was this by Champ?

 

No, a poodle was attacked in Ballaquayle Road a month or so back by a fawn-coloured mastiff-type dog. Ms Kneen said that Champ had been attacked a year ago in Derby Square by what was probably the same dog and had "had his throat ripped out"

 

ETA - added links BBC News story

 

Forum Thread

[manshimajin]

SK has now explained a bit more about what happened:

IOMtday

MONDAY, NOVEMBER 10, 2008 11:34: The IOM Govt have told my lawyer that they will not except the report from Doctor Roger Mugford so its pointless getting him over here. The petition has been resigned because Champ is now being re homed in Ireland so therefore we are not going ahead with the court case. Hope this meets your satisfaction people. Unfortunately we lost but like my lawyer said at least Champ is still alive and will be re homed in Ireland……so it's not been a complete waste of time….

SARA

It would have been less of a waste of time if she had organised rehoming when she was first told the dog was illegal here instead of mounting her publicity campaign. Glad Champ is going to Ireland as he was just the pawn in a game of trying to beat the law. Take the sunglasses....

 

As the song says:

 

"I fought the law and the law won"

[Silentbob]

So basically, yes, you wasted everybodies time for an outcome asked of you in the first place; only this way, the Government foots the bill for upkeep and rehoming. And you get to donate a sum of money (of which the public is not aware of the amount actually raised) to try and make yourself look good?

 

Kindly deport yourself with the money, far better use of it.

[John Wright]

Thing is government has no power to make her.

 

I stress once a pit bull type is here, albeit brought in illegally, its presence is not illegal. It cannot be legally put down or deported, just for being of type.

[jimbms]

It cannot be legally put down or deported, just for being of type.

Are we talking the dog or the owner here

[manshimajin]

Thing is government has no power to make her.

 

I stress once a pit bull type is here, albeit brought in illegally, its presence is not illegal. It cannot be legally put down or deported, just for being of type.

So why is it now being deported?

[WTF]

Thing is government has no power to make her.

 

I stress once a pit bull type is here, albeit brought in illegally, its presence is not illegal. It cannot be legally put down or deported, just for being of type.

 

 

so back to a way earlier post of mine, if i smuggled in a tiger or crocodile and got the animal home and advertised it on manxnet, there's nothing the government can do?? it can stay?? silly person. i think the fact it arrived illegally allows for it to be removed? perhaps thats how the AG was told to look at this one??