What's Your Faith, Or Lack Of It?

[jimbms]

There are people who will hate something just because their church tells them to, like homosexuality.

 

And there are lots who won't. So your point is?

 

I thought the point Jimbms was making, but I might be wrong, was that the interpretations and instructions given by the authoritative figures of a Church or religion are used to change or shape people's view and opinions. But when it all boils down to it, it is an interpretation and considering that God doesn't exist it seems silly to mindlessly follow it. Unless if it accords with people's prejudices when it simply serves to prop up such thoughts and feelings.

You got it in one

[keyboarder]

It is my opinion that music would exist in some form regardless of religion,

Yes, mine too.

 

i reckon mans wonder would have been awoken the first time he heard birdsong.

Not too sure about that you might be right but I don't see how you could be. Birdsong's seriously complex, Messiaen might be a good place to start if you fancy trying to justify your claim, lol,lol......

 

above is an opinion, if you want to you could have a go at presenting a counter argument or picking apart my statement. or you could take the path of the troll and say that only a gay/moron/wanker could possibly have the above opinion.

 

Take the high road keyboarder you know you can do it!

Uh, ok.

 

Music- this is such a two way deal, without religion we would still of had music but may well have to put up without some of the great composers, who were undoubtedly influenced by their great love affair with the church.

I think you'll find the great love affair was with music, not the church. In fact many composers of religious music were and are actually non believers. But an enormous amount of fantastic and innovative music would not have been produced without being commissioned by religious groups. To say nothing of the church building's role as a venue for organ and choral works.

 

religion on the other hand owes much to music, hymns and inspiring music put bums in seats. regardless of this music would still be with us with or with out religion.

That's putting the cart before the horse somewhat.

[P.K.]

There are people who will hate something just because their church tells them to, like homosexuality.

And there are lots who won't. So your point is?

I thought the point Jimbms was making, but I might be wrong, was that the interpretations and instructions given by the authoritative figures of a Church or religion are used to change or shape people's view and opinions. But when it all boils down to it, it is an interpretation and considering that God doesn't exist it seems silly to mindlessly follow it. Unless if it accords with people's prejudices when it simply serves to prop up such thoughts and feelings.

You got it in one

But for those who believe God does exist then it makes sense. That doesn't make them stupid, or naive, or blind or whatever it just means they make sense out of something you can't and as I posted earlier there are an awful lot who don't just follow everything they are told but find it thought provoking. They may even respect your opinions even though you don't respect theirs which does make them different from you. But then if we were all the same we wouldn't get on.

[Lao]

thank you for your post keyboarder, i found this post much more productive than the other and oliver messiaen seems like an interesting read.

 

I think we might be at crossed wires though, the poster before you was making a case for the defence of religion with such examples as the hospitalliers and education and then you mentioned music. I still feel that these cant really be considered as good examples as they would have in my opinion been quite successful with or without religion. but from your last post I'm not sure if you were agreeing with him or not.

 

if i got your meaning wrong then i apologize, but if you still think that the music that has come from religion is a strong point in its defence i would be genuinely interested in any links or examples you could post.

 

it would seem that the Isle of man does not fit into the standard world religious demographic, according to recent polls the worlds belief structure looks something like this:

 

Christianity: 2.1 billion

Islam: 1.5 billion

Atheist: 1.1 billion (includes secular, agnostic and irreligious)

Hinduism 0.9 billion

Chinese folk religion 0.4 billion

Buddhism 0.3 billion

 

according to the manxforums poll a larger percentage seems to be atheist, why is this? are there more atheist here than elsewhere? do the religious wish to keep their beliefs to themselves? or is it because its Sunday and they are all at church!

[La_Dolce_Vita]

There are people who will hate something just because their church tells them to, like homosexuality.

And there are lots who won't. So your point is?

I thought the point Jimbms was making, but I might be wrong, was that the interpretations and instructions given by the authoritative figures of a Church or religion are used to change or shape people's view and opinions. But when it all boils down to it, it is an interpretation and considering that God doesn't exist it seems silly to mindlessly follow it. Unless if it accords with people's prejudices when it simply serves to prop up such thoughts and feelings.

You got it in one

But for those who believe God does exist then it makes sense. That doesn't make them stupid, or naive, or blind or whatever it just means they make sense out of something you can't and as I posted earlier there are an awful lot who don't just follow everything they are told but find it thought provoking. They may even respect your opinions even though you don't respect theirs which does make them different from you. But then if we were all the same we wouldn't get on.

 

What makes sense to the believers? Belief in God? I don't think it makes then stupid, but it is hard from your perspective to not see it as being naive. And I think that not just about those who worship the one god, but those who believe in many. Although I can quite appreciate the reverse that, and understand that a believer would think I am being foolish or have not yet 'found' God. I don't religion or spirituality deserves respect, in that no deference should be shown and people should not hold back from criticising it. But I see little problem in people having spiritual beliefs. And I do recognise that a lot of people do good on the back of their moral codes in the Bible, Koran, etc.

[P.K.]

What makes sense to the believers? Belief in God? I don't think it makes them stupid, but it is hard from your perspective to not see it as being naive.

Believe me it shows. A lot on here seem to mock those who simply live their lives differently. It says something about their intolerance, that's for sure.

[Whimsy]

Those of you who have followed my fast withering career on these forums, will know that for a time in the early seventies, I WAS actually God. I' m serious about that. http://www.manxforums.com/forums/index.php...1071&st=195

 

It was a bit of a fluke, though not quite accidental. I was meant to be there, doing the job. Not very well as it turned out, I made lots of mistakes. But so did the 'Gods' before me and those that followed since.

 

I finally got booted out for letting Alvin Stardust get to number 1 - well that's what they told me - but I think it had something to do with a big flood somewhere abroad and lots of unpleasant deaths, and they were trying to spare my feelings.

 

In conclusion, what you think of as God is absolutely nothing like you all imagine.

 

It is a job which certain people get to do at some times. Lots of pressure, and not a lot of fun - except for knowing some secrets, and getting to play around with carbon, hydrogen and oxygen.

 

We have all cocked it up, and no-one yet has got it right. When your time is up THEY sack you.

[Lonan3]

There are those who march through life, those who walk, and those who need crutches.

Those who march cause most of the trouble.

Those who walk just get on with it.

The others deify their crutches and pray to them.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

What makes sense to the believers? Belief in God? I don't think it makes them stupid, but it is hard from your perspective to not see it as being naive.

Believe me it shows. A lot on here seem to mock those who simply live their lives differently. It says something about their intolerance, that's for sure.

 

And mockery is wrong. What purpose does it serve other than to make people feel bad about themselves. Although I don't know if you were referring to me, but naive would have been the wrong word to use. I don't believe people who believe in God have a simplistic, understanding of things. Many do and follow religious leaders without question.

But from the perspective of an atheist, belief in supreme beings appears to be quite ridiculous. And if it would appear that people are being gullible. But the converse is true from the perspective of believers on non-believers.

[DjDan]

according to the manxforums poll a larger percentage seems to be atheist, why is this? are there more atheist here than elsewhere? do the religious wish to keep their beliefs to themselves? or is it because its Sunday and they are all at church!

 

I think you'll find being an "atheist" is the latest macho-thing. It's like status! Can you imagine being faced with the question "Do you believe in God?" and responding "Yes" !! ??? Place would be in uproar with laughter!! You believe??? Seriously?? Are you mad???

 

With the ignorant trend of society looking at religious persons as being 'complete idiots' and 'incapable of independent intellectual thought'.. it's no suprise that most people consider themselves atheist.

 

I am a believer. Hah, in case you'd forgotten.

 

On the Isle of Man it may well be that atheism is more widely acknowledged - but I firmly believe that sincerely, that is not the case. Most people simply do not make an attempt to care to decide. And a lot of people who say "i do not believe" actually do.. ask them the same question when a miracle has just happened in their life! When in that split moment, they don't know how but they have survived a near-death experience. People believe then.

 

Edit: As for me... I have prayed about some very important events in my life. I have prayed and requested a specific result. I have felt incredible feelings in those prayers that cannot be created, and I have had those specific prayers answered exactly. These were not simple prayers. Every happy moment in my life now - I can identify it as being a direct result of those prayers that were answered, and I will never forget that moment, and the feelings that I felt when I prayed, and some weeks later when the answers came. My family and I are so richly blessed beyond belief. Blessed not by the world but by my Heavenly Father. I cannot and will never deny my direct answers that I know there is a God. I cannot physically prove it to you (that is not needed) but my experiences in life.. and in God have shown me that he is there.

 

I cannot share details with you. They are too personal. Regardless, a man's experience cannot be transferred to another - and you will not understand the things that I say without experiencing it for yourself.

 

At the end of the day, we all have choice. For those that say they are 'unsure'.... I urge you to make the effort and find out. If at the end you feel that there is no God - that's a choice you will make and live with. Likewise if you find that there is a God - but in doing this - you will change your life! It is worth the effort.

[Miss Take]

We've all survived near death experiences, just by being born in the first place. Think of all the little sperms that missed out - the biggest 'miracle' is that we're here in the first place. Doesn't mean that I feel a need to get down on my knees and pray to someone or something to thank them for the privilege of being alive.

 

Dan, it's very easy to dismiss atheism as a trend (which it isn't, it's just becoming more acceptable to say that you don't actually believe in anything) - in fact I think it's almost necessary for deeply religious people to think of it as such in order to protect their own beliefs.

 

Edited to respond to Dan's edit. I'm sorry but I don't see the point in even mentioning that you've prayed for specific things and got results if you're unwilling to discuss the details - that's no more of a compelling argument than saying 'I just know...'.

[loaf]

And a lot of people who say "i do not believe" actually do.

And vice versa.

 

I think you'll find being an "atheist" is the latest macho-thing.

Being open and honest about being an atheist is a relatively new thing, yes, but I wouldn't regard it as 'macho'. You're not going to 'pull any birds' by declaring your non-Godliness to anyone.

 

On the contrary, I think many atheists keep their voices low about their disbelief for the sake of the feelings of their close friends and family, and if the bird they are trying to pull is a believer.

 

Being oafish and 'macho' anonymously on an internet forum doesn't really count.

[ourtess]

What difference will it make if there is a god or not?

Your molecules will still outlast you no matter what, and good luck to 'em.

[bluemonday]

Hawkwind - Master of The Universe (Brock / Turner)

 

I am the centre of this universe

The wind of time is blowing through me

And it's all moving relative to me,

It's all a figment of my mind

In a world that I've designed

I'm charged with cosmic energy

Has the world gone mad or is it me?

I am the creator of this universe

And all that it was meant to be

So that we might learn to see

This foolishness that lives in us

And stupidity that we must suss

How to banish from our minds

If you call this living I must be blind.

[Amadeus]

I think you'll find being an "atheist" is the latest macho-thing. It's like status! Can you imagine being faced with the question "Do you believe in God?" and responding "Yes" !! ??? Place would be in uproar with laughter!! You believe??? Seriously?? Are you mad???

 

What a load of rubbish - why is it a "macho thing"? Couldn't it simply be that we live in a bit more modern times, where all the religious hocus-pocus simply doesn't impress people anymore in the way it may have done previously? Couldn't it be that most people are simply way more informed, because information is easier to obtain, and with more information it is easier to come to a conclusion for yourself? Sorry, but most, if not all, religious movements (an honourable mention must go to the catholic church here) have well and truly missed the signs of time and are inevitably on the decline.

 

I am a believer. Hah, in case you'd forgotten.

 

Which is completely cool with me - you could join the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster as far as I'm concerned - it's still a relatively free country and I couldn't care less. What I do care about, however, is when religious movements try to convert people or "spread the message" to us "unbelievers". Sorry to say it, DjDan, but your lot has a reputation for doing this. Maybe it's time we form a big Atheist Action Group and knock on doors on saturday mornings, trying to tell people that the whole God thing is rubbish - but I think most people have better things to do with their time.

 

And a lot of people who say "i do not believe" actually do.. ask them the same question when a miracle has just happened in their life! When in that split moment, they don't know how but they have survived a near-death experience. People believe then.

Sorry, but I had a few rather bad experiences in my life that would fall in above category - not a single one of them made me "believe". Easy to say "It's a miracle" - a lot harder to think about it and analyse what happened.

 

Edit: As for me... I have prayed about some very important events in my life. I have prayed and requested a specific result. I have felt incredible feelings in those prayers that cannot be created, and I have had those specific prayers answered exactly.

In which case, and I am being semi-serious here, could you please put your good connections to use and set up a local prayer group like this? Surely it must be worth a shot if this prayer thing works so well...