Cronky Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 Jacqui Smith unveils the UK's new identity card - with no sign of Britain An assault on our freedom First sight of the ID cards that will soon be compulsory Foreign national ID card unveiled Row continues as Smith unveils identity card ID cards: a wasteful government folly How long before the squeeze gets put on the Isle of Man to issue ID Cards for travelling across? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 How long before the squeeze gets put on the Isle of Man to issue ID Cards for travelling across? Why do illegal immigrants travel through the whole of Europe to get to the UK? Is it a coincidence that the UK is the only country in Europe to not have an ID card system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 How long before the squeeze gets put on the Isle of Man to issue ID Cards for travelling across? Why do illegal immigrants travel through the whole of Europe to get to the UK? Is it a coincidence that the UK is the only country in Europe to not have an ID card system? I didn't know it was the only country. Well I hope it stays that way. Probably isn't a coincidence that they come to the UK, but it doesn't seem to worth bringing I.D. cards in to regulate immigration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeddan Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 How long before the squeeze gets put on the Isle of Man to issue ID Cards for travelling across? Why do illegal immigrants travel through the whole of Europe to get to the UK? Is it a coincidence that the UK is the only country in Europe to not have an ID card system? Are you suggesting ID cards would make immigration control or border control any better or the UK less attractive to illegal immigrants? Because they have ID cards are there now no illegal immigrants in Denmark, Germany, France, Italy....? What will make the difference is the follow-on legislation that will come - i.e. requiring employers, councils, schools etc. to check ID cards. Then of course it will only be really effective if everyone has one, and, ideally if carried at all times for police checks. Then one might anticipate that you won't be able to rent a car, buy a train ticket or get on the Underground without an ID card. Next will come a whole issue of ID card verification and authentication to sift out the fake ones that are bound to crop up. Centralised databases to track transactions, etc. Boy, I hope they don't get damaged if they get put in the wash by accident. Probably take 3 weeks and a big fee to get issued with a new one. Personally I'd sooner have the illegal immigrants working below minimum wage and doing their bit to prop up the economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 How long before the squeeze gets put on the Isle of Man to issue ID Cards for travelling across? Why do illegal immigrants travel through the whole of Europe to get to the UK? Is it a coincidence that the UK is the only country in Europe to not have an ID card system? Are you suggesting ID cards would make immigration control or border control any better or the UK less attractive to illegal immigrants? Because they have ID cards are there now no illegal immigrants in Denmark, Germany, France, Italy....? What will make the difference is the follow-on legislation that will come - i.e. requiring employers, councils, schools etc. to check ID cards. Then of course it will only be really effective if everyone has one, and, ideally if carried at all times for police checks. Then one might anticipate that you won't be able to rent a car, buy a train ticket or get on the Underground without an ID card. Next will come a whole issue of ID card verification and authentication to sift out the fake ones that are bound to crop up. Centralised databases to track transactions, etc. Boy, I hope they don't get damaged if they get put in the wash by accident. Probably take 3 weeks and a big fee to get issued with a new one. Personally I'd sooner have the illegal immigrants working below minimum wage and doing their bit to prop up the economy. I agree. I don't see anything wrong with workers (whether legal or illegal) coming over to simply subsist. Just the arseholes in the Labour party have framed this ID card by implying that illegal immigrants are bad and legal immigrants good (or better). Well if they do get ruined in the wash, it might not be environmentally friendly but worth putting the washing machine on 50 degree celsius for. I really really hate the idea of ID cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucker Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 How long before the squeeze gets put on the Isle of Man to issue ID Cards for travelling across? Why do illegal immigrants travel through the whole of Europe to get to the UK? Is it a coincidence that the UK is the only country in Europe to not have an ID card system? If they manage to travel through the whole of Europe without one then whats the point of them ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langweilig Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 From what I've read about the Isle of Man, it is NOT part of the United Kingdom. It's a Crown dependency. It is NOT part of the European Union and it has it's own currency and makes it's own laws. So why can't the Tynwald tell the EU to go get stuffed? Answers on a pigeon please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triple H Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 I really don't see what all the fuss is about with ID cards, if you have nothing to hide what difference would they make? None in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 Why do illegal immigrants travel through the whole of Europe to get to the UK? Is it a coincidence that the UK is the only country in Europe to not have an ID card system? I think the Italians and Spanish would really like their illegal immigrants to travel on to the UK.... I really don't see what all the fuss is about with ID cards, if you have nothing to hide what difference would they make? None in my opinion. So if they would make no difference why have them? The UK government is making a fuss about reducing crime and illegal immigration by using the ID Cards. At the same time they don't have enough police and can't give the one's they have the independently agreed pay increase. The people who want to break the law or get in illegally will still find ways to do it, ID cards or no ID cards. Just another waste of money by the bureaucrats. So I agree, what's the fuss. Invest in frontline security and forget about ID Cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 I really don't see what all the fuss is about with ID cards, if you have nothing to hide what difference would they make? None in my opinion. In terms of what difference they would make, it is a bit of an unknown because the UK government hasn't explained properly about why they are required. I can't see any requirement for them. But the idea of an I.D. card gives the impression that if it is to be useful there is a requirement for me to PROVE my identity and eligibility in many aspects of my day to day life, where there was not this requirement before. The UK scheme also means that a lot of data is held centrally, where it was not the case before. And no doubt it will become compulsory to carry such a card. But to answer your question, the point is not about what information you have to hide, but rather if you have nothing to hide why should you not be able to go about your business and do as you usually did without having to PROVE yourself. If I go on holiday I use a passport, if I go to a bank I use other identification or my passport...and I have a university card for accessing their resources. I don't use any other cards. So why start using one now? From what I've read about the Isle of Man, it is NOT part of the United Kingdom. It's a Crown dependency. It is NOT part of the European Union and it has it's own currency and makes it's own laws. So why can't the Tynwald tell the EU to go get stuffed? What does the EU have to do with this? Besides European ID cards, as far as I am aware, do not hold as much data nor is the information all held centrally as would be the case in the UK. But simply because the Isle of Man is a Crown Dependency does not mean that it WILL act differently from the UK. Just because the people of the Isle of Man have a government separate to the UK does not mean it works in the interests of the Isle of Man's people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeddan Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 From what I've read about the Isle of Man, it is NOT part of the United Kingdom. It's a Crown dependency. It is NOT part of the European Union and it has it's own currency and makes it's own laws. So why can't the Tynwald tell the EU to go get stuffed? Answers on a pigeon please. You answered the question yourself - the Isle of Man is a Crown Dependency. The UK govt have power to impose legislation whether Tynwald like it or not (though everyone prefers to be tactful and make it seem it is all by consent and agreement). Laws made by UK which extend to IoM trump any laws made by Tynwald. See Kilbrandon Report and Crowther Commission Report on the Constitution: "Parliament has a paramount power to legislate for the islands—the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands—in any circumstances.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 It really is nothing to do with Europe and or good government or legislative capability. We all of us have id issued by government already, tax number, NI number, NHS number, driving licence number, passport number and whats more some of them are crossreferenceable already. Then they can trace you through your phone calls and credit card and bank debits Illegal immigration and the terrorist threat is nothing to do with why the Government want to introduce, to be honest I cannot think why they want to except that they see information as power. The thing that is a worry is what governmenmt want us to be made to do with the cards when we have them. I can see an advantage to haveing one ID number, and a single card, which proves my entitlement to benefit. pension, GP and hospital treatment, driving and nationality status and is my voter registration number etc. I would gladly have one little card to do all of that and I would carry it What I do not want is the law, which presently says that if I am not in trouble and arrested, I have no need to tell a police man, or other organ of state authority, who I am and why I am there, changed so I have to carry the card and produce on request. Lets get down to brass tacks or basics; why should the state need to know who I am and why I am where I am if I am breaking no law and consuming no state services. That is the real problem with ID cards, the power of the state to completely control if they mis use the info and the issue What is the real resaon behind IOM not having implemented a residency policy, ask yourselves. The only way would be to determine who is Manx enough to stay here and draw up a list and issue a card. Would I be worried about the card being Europe wide and of standard form? No, passports and driving licences and vehicle log books are already that, but I do worry about the security police in some European City having the right to demand who I am , to demand why I am there and then if I do not have my passport/ID to lock me up. That being said I am profoundly pro European and still feel that the sooner we are in the EU the better, cut the apron strings of Westminster. Yes there is lots wrong, but there uis more that is right and we can campaign from within to rectify the democracy defecit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 An interesting little read on cost/benefits LSE Review of ID Cards If all the costs associated with ID cards were borne by citizens (as Treasury rules currently require), the cost per card (plus passport) would be around £170 on the lowest cost basis and £230 on the median estimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeddan Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 Illegal immigration and the terrorist threat is nothing to do with why the Government want to introduce, to be honest I cannot think why they want to except that they see information as power. Which it is. The UK Govt also consider that they are justified in assuming that power because they will use it wisely and benevolently for the public good - the trouble is that there doesn't seem to be any clarity on what limits there might be to that or what checks and controls there are over this. The thing that is a worry is what governmenmt want us to be made to do with the cards when we have them. That is the real problem with ID cards, the power of the state to completely control if they mis use the info and the issue Absolutely - and add to that the problem that potential power to control is likely to make some people shy of being critical of govt for fear of being categorised as 'dissident' or having subversive tendencies. It increases mistrust of government, and that in itself adds to loss of cohesion, us/them, and increasing authoritarianism. What is the real resaon behind IOM not having implemented a residency policy, ask yourselves. The only way would be to determine who is Manx enough to stay here and draw up a list and issue a card. I wouldn't have thought that's the reason - if anything it goes back much further - English subjects were allowed to settle by virtue of being under suzerainty. Would I be worried about the card being Europe wide and of standard form? No, passports and driving licences and vehicle log books are already that. The difference is that ID cards are to be compulsory - none of the above are. There are specific limited circumstances when these can be inspected - and for good reason. ID Cards are a kind of generic document - non-specific, not limited to any particular issue or purpose, and not subject to any oversight such as Privacy Commissioner or some strong and effective mechanism for controlling what use might be made of them. I share view that it might be convenient to have one - but then make that a matter of choice - why make it compulsory? That being said I am profoundly pro European and still feel that the sooner we are in the EU the better, cut the apron strings of Westminster. Yes there is lots wrong, but there uis more that is right and we can campaign from within to rectify the democracy defecit. I think there could be a lot to be said for joining EU - but at the moment I think there is less prospect of that happening than Northern Ireland joining the EU as a separate member state. I don't know how you think IoM could 'cut the apron strings of Westminster' - the right of self-determination has not been recognised as applicable to IoM - for legitimate and sound reasons IMO - i.e. UK could no more grant independence to IoM than it could have granted independence to Hong Kong. I'd be wary that pro-European leanings may colour your view that IoM might somehow become eligible as a nation state when it may not be quite as you might wish to believe. There's some big issues that need to be nutted out over IoM's constitutional status before EU membership might even be considered a possibility. If EU membership is ever to be more than pie in the sky, then look to deal with these 'precursor' issues. I read that the ID Cards will cost something like £34bn - £37bn (if brought in on budget!). I'd think you should have one hell of a business case to justify that kind of expenditure. Passports, NI and NHS numbers already exist - it would be easy enough to provide a system to allow these to be checked and verified by border control, immigration, GPs, hospitals, and employers (oh, doesn't that exist already?). Fiscal responsibility? I'll believe it when I see the business case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 How long before the squeeze gets put on the Isle of Man to issue ID Cards for travelling across? Why do illegal immigrants travel through the whole of Europe to get to the UK? Is it a coincidence that the UK is the only country in Europe to not have an ID card system? You are implying that all immigrants into Europe go to the UK. That is palpably untrue. Ask the Italians, the Spanish, the French, or the Germans. They all have huge numbers of illegals. The ones who go to the UK don't do so because of ID cards. They do so because they speak English, or want to, or they have friends in the UK who can help them get work. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.