First 'euro Style' Id Cards

[jimbms]

You are implying that all immigrants into Europe go to the UK. That is palpably untrue. Ask the Italians, the Spanish, the French, or the Germans. They all have huge numbers of illegals.

 

The ones who go to the UK don't do so because of ID cards. They do so because they speak English, or want to, or they have friends in the UK who can help them get work.

I would say more of they go to England because a), Many british police forces have a policy of not arresting illigals but giving them a notice instructing them to report to the nearest immigration centre withing 28 days, and b), if they do get caught the nanny state across there will give them housing and benifits for the 5yrs it take for their appeal to take place then further benifits for the second appeal period. I have to agree an I.D. card would stop some of this if used correctly i.e. no legal I.D. = instant deportation. Forget the benifit state, if your not a national of the country you live in and you don't work then no benifits you go.

[manshimajin]

This is a quote from the UK Information Commissioner:

I have expressed my unease that the current proposal to establish a national identification system is founded on an extensive central register of personal information controlled by government and is disproportionate to the stated objectives behind the introduction of ID cards. It raises substantial data protection concerns about the extent of the information recorded about an individual when the ID card is used in their day to day lives and sparks fears about the potential for wider use/access to this information in the future.

I remain sceptical that the ID Card is the real solution to illegal immigration - what about tight initial border controls and follow-up checks on non-national working in the UK? The LSE project a cost of £10-20 billion for the system. I gather that the UK Conservative Party would abandon it if it was elected as it sees it as a monumental waste of taxpayer money that could be better used elsewhere or not spent at all.

 

It is also interesting that the UK has no plans to join the Schengen Area which integrates EU border security - and also covers Iceland, Norway and Switzerland. If they seriously want to stop illegal imigration and criminal activity this would surely be part of the process?

 

Maybe they have found a solution in search of a problem and are hell bent on using it?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I would say more of they go to England because a), Many british police forces have a policy of not arresting illigals but giving them a notice instructing them to report to the nearest immigration centre withing 28 days, and b), if they do get caught the nanny state across there will give them housing and benifits for the 5yrs it take for their appeal to take place then further benifits for the second appeal period. I have to agree an I.D. card would stop some of this if used correctly i.e. no legal I.D. = instant deportation. Forget the benifit state, if your not a national of the country you live in and you don't work then no benifits you go.

 

 

I don't see a problem with illegal working per se. If they have a job then so what. But obviously there are problems if they are getting paid peanuts for the work they do. I think the system of dealing with illegal immigrants is the problem, not the immigration itself.

 

the UK Conservative Party would abandon it if it was elected as it sees it as a monumental waste of taxpayer money that could be better used elsewhere or not spent at all.

 

A problem from my perpective is that having a Conservative Government in power is a slightly greater evil than a Labour one, giving what they represent and some of their beliefs. For those who vote it might be a decider. But I think in the UK so many people are sick of the Labour government they would vote for the Tories now.

[ai_Droid]

I don't see a problem with illegal working per se. If they have a job then so what. But obviously there are problems if they are getting paid peanuts for the work they do. I think the system of dealing with illegal immigrants is the problem, not the immigration itself.

 

If they're not working officially, how will they pay tax? If they're working tax free, how is a legitimate tax paying worker supposed to be competitive?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I don't see a problem with illegal working per se. If they have a job then so what. But obviously there are problems if they are getting paid peanuts for the work they do. I think the system of dealing with illegal immigrants is the problem, not the immigration itself.

 

If they're not working officially, how will they pay tax? If they're working tax free, how is a legitimate tax paying worker supposed to be competitive?

 

You are right, they would pay no tax, where otherwise they would pay an amount, a small one though. But if that is the cost of improving their situation then it is fine with me. If they get paid shit in Poland or in some African country then at least they can make more here. If they are not given permission to work based on their skills but could still get a job here if there was no vetting process then I see the immigration screening as the issue.

[ai_Droid]

You are right, they would pay no tax, where otherwise they would pay an amount, a small one though. But if that is the cost of improving their situation then it is fine with me. If they get paid shit in Poland or in some African country then at least they can make more here. If they are not given permission to work based on their skills but could still get a job here if there was no vetting process then I see the immigration screening as the issue.

 

So they wont contribute to the infrastructure they'll be using, the healthcare system, the governments departments, education, etc. Legitimate workers will. That's ok with you?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

You are right, they would pay no tax, where otherwise they would pay an amount, a small one though. But if that is the cost of improving their situation then it is fine with me. If they get paid shit in Poland or in some African country then at least they can make more here. If they are not given permission to work based on their skills but could still get a job here if there was no vetting process then I see the immigration screening as the issue.

 

So they wont contribute to the infrastructure they'll be using, the healthcare system, the governments departments, education, etc. Legitimate workers will. That's ok with you?

 

Yes, because if the alternative is deportation or detention I would think it fine. Though I don't know what proportion make full use of state services given their illegality. I appreciate the burden is on legal citizens, but the problem does not lie with the immigration but with their status and reasons for coming here.

[jimbms]

You are right, they would pay no tax, where otherwise they would pay an amount, a small one though. But if that is the cost of improving their situation then it is fine with me. If they get paid shit in Poland or in some African country then at least they can make more here. If they are not given permission to work based on their skills but could still get a job here if there was no vetting process then I see the immigration screening as the issue.

 

So they wont contribute to the infrastructure they'll be using, the healthcare system, the governments departments, education, etc. Legitimate workers will. That's ok with you?

 

Yes, because if the alternative is deportation or detention I would think it fine. Though I don't know what proportion make full use of state services given their illegality. I appreciate the burden is on legal citizens, but the problem does not lie with the immigration but with their status and reasons for coming here.

So what you are saying is honest legal citizens should pay the shortfall of these criminals because by avoiding tax etc and baing ILLIGAL immigrants thats what they are criminals. If they don't pay deport them.

[Skeddan]

I share manshimajin's and John Wright's view that ID Cards are a solution to illegal immigration - and doubt that it has anything to do with this at all.

 

There are so many simple things that could be done to stop illegal immigration - 'low hanging fruit' which is being neglected and which could be very much more effective - things which needn't raise any concerns from privacy commissioner, civil rights people or ordinary citizens and legitimate residents and visitors, and which wouldn't be expensive.

 

Frankly I think the UK govt takes a similar view as the US govt - illegal immigrants actually prop up the economy doing low paid menial work below minimum wage - and they don't really want to put a stop to it. Instead it is given as a reason for introducing ID Cards because some justification is needed and this and 'terrorism' are issues the public feel strongly about.

 

Can anyone explain how ID Cards might have stopped the London Underground bombings?

 

The only objective that stands up is in helping deal with 'the threat of criminals' - As UK information Commissioner said, he had 'unease' that "the current proposal to establish a national identification system is founded on an extensive central register of personal information controlled by government".

 

i.e. a UK counterpart to EDVIGE.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

You are right, they would pay no tax, where otherwise they would pay an amount, a small one though. But if that is the cost of improving their situation then it is fine with me. If they get paid shit in Poland or in some African country then at least they can make more here. If they are not given permission to work based on their skills but could still get a job here if there was no vetting process then I see the immigration screening as the issue.

 

So they wont contribute to the infrastructure they'll be using, the healthcare system, the governments departments, education, etc. Legitimate workers will. That's ok with you?

 

Yes, because if the alternative is deportation or detention I would think it fine. Though I don't know what proportion make full use of state services given their illegality. I appreciate the burden is on legal citizens, but the problem does not lie with the immigration but with their status and reasons for coming here.

So what you are saying is honest legal citizens should pay the shortfall of these criminals because by avoiding tax etc and baing ILLIGAL immigrants thats what they are criminals. If they don't pay deport them.

 

When it comes to the law you do afford it far more respect than it deserves. Laws can change and sometimes offer nothing more than a rule, not always a reflection of what is right or wrong. Wrong is not always done by breaking a law.

 

Yes, these people don't pay tax, because if they wouldn't be able to get a job otherwise. The only option is for them to return wherever they came where their economic situation will be undoubtedly worse. I don't blame them for coming here to be honest. If unkilled African workers cannot enter the country because they lack skills, yet can find a job in the UK I fail to see the problem. They cannot be honest because they were refused entry, to some extent they have to keep their existence somewhat secret. Many would not choose to use public services or make little use of them.

It's hardly an ideal situation but one they chose over returning to their country. Besides if they are coming from African or relatively poor countries much of the blame lies with the global economic system that keeps these people poor. If they wish to move it is understandable but unless western workers have an issue with their economic system they live under they must simply lump it!

 

Besides I wouldn't bring up the idea of the taxpayer paying shortfalls. The UK taxpayer already forks out millions of pounds a year to other governments, not for charity, but for defaulting on payments for arms deals. So a relatively small amount of tax doesn't seem much of an issue in comparison.

[manshimajin]

i.e. a UK counterpart to EDVIGE.

Hadn't heard of this one. Just found this from the Times Online:

Edvige, which is also a woman's name, was created by decree in July to store data on anyone aged 13 or above who is "likely to breach public order".

 

"Sarkozy's Big Sister", as it has been dubbed, will also track anyone active in politics or trade unions and in a significant role in business, the media, entertainment or social or religious institutions. Listed people will have limited rights to consult their files.

I could see 99% of contributors to this forum being popped into the system for our views.

[Skeddan]

I could see 99% of contributors to this forum being popped into the system for our views.

And people becoming shy of expressing views for fear of being popped into the system.

 

However illegal immigration and terrorism make it easier to sell - EDVIGE was a PR blunder.

[LQQ]

“You are right, they would pay no tax” – No income tax. They would still pay VAT on any purchases they make in the country. Any money they spend would also be going in to the economy and supporting business – as well as supporting business through cheap labour. I also suspect the amounts they earn would keep them relatively near the income tax threshold and so probably wouldn’t be paying much anyway.

 

I am a tax payer (income tax road tax VAT TV what ever is going really) and am more concerned about the million/billionaire tax evaders who could be making a serious financial contribution to the system who instead register their addresses in Monaco and pay no income tax either.

 

 

By the way - this is my first post so hello Am due to move to the island with my family at the end of the year. Am enjoying this forum in the mean time.

[jimbms]

Welcome LQQ hope you enjoy life here, don't take the forum replys to heart we are on the whole a bunch of moaning gits.

[Albert Tatlock]

People earning money illegally have employers or customers. People employing such dodgers can and should be hammered by fines, and if they continually employ illegals their rights to be directors or to run companies should be curtailed. Customers paying into this black economy are not doing anything but damaging us all by letting them get away with it.