Mission Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 One of the highlights of the week is the "familygram", when members of the crew receive short messages from family and friends back home. Unfortunately these greetings cannot be returned, as this would reveal the submarine's position. A deterrent patrol owes its success to total secrecy and the submarine has to remain completely hidden from the outside world. Not likely to be a sub on active service, so if it is a Vanguard class sub (and the size and profile of it does suggest this) then it surely must be a new one on trials. link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeddan Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Not likely to be a sub on active service, so if it is a Vanguard class sub (and the size and profile of it does suggest this) then it surely must be a new one on trials. I thought there were only 4 - and no new ones on trials - only HMS Victorious. (?) I didn't realise how big these are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimcalagon Posted October 10, 2008 Author Share Posted October 10, 2008 Not likely to be a sub on active service, so if it is a Vanguard class sub (and the size and profile of it does suggest this) then it surely must be a new one on trials. I thought there were only 4 - and no new ones on trials - only HMS Victorious. (?) I didn't realise how big these are! Looking at the side elevation in that image, it very closely matches what I saw - including the midships bulge where the missile tubes are located. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeddan Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Looking at the side elevation in that image, it very closely matches what I saw - including the midships bulge where the missile tubes are located. If roughly know focal length used in photos, then fairly trivial trig to calculate approx length from uncropped photo. Given the size of these monsters it would be pretty certain then - though distinctive profile and what you note is pretty conclusive anyway to distinguish from any other class of submarine - that is assuming it is a UK submarine. ..."How dare they use 'our' bay!" I'd assume that this submarine entered Manx waters on basis of 'innocent passage', and not prejudicial to the peace, good order and security of IoM, and didn't launch any torpedoes or trident missiles, so was not engaged in any exercise or practice of weapons of any kind - if so, then fair enough being there. I've not looked into exactly how the 1982 LOS (Law of Sea) applies to IoM, but I'd think its principles apply, including Article 20: In the territorial sea, submarines and other underwater vehicles are required to navigate on the surface and to show their flag. OK this submarine was navigating on the surface and not firing weapons or anything, so seems innocent enough, however I'd think it should still be showing its flag - but I can't see any ensign flying in the photos, but it's hard to tell at the resolution in the copies posted. Did you see one Jimcalagon? If LOS Convention applies, and it wasn't flying a flag, then IoM could request to comply with this, and if disregarded, then could require the submarine to leave Manx waters immediately. I don't know what would happen if this was disregarded - send out the Barrule? Sound the siren? Call in the Royal Navy? Send a strongly worded letter to DCA, FCO, MoD or whoever? Seriously though, not that big a deal, but if not flying a flag, then regardless of LOS 1982, it is a wee bit discourteous - I'd think the Admiralty would have been more sensitive to such things and would have shown greater regard and care when their warships are in Manx waters, and I'd assume this is just an oversight rather than deliberate rudeness. I think a polite and courteous letter raising mild concern that their submarine may not have been flying an ensign when in Manx waters and seeking clarification etc. might find them entirely disposed to showing IoM due courtesy in this manner. It's only good PR for them, so they'd probably appreciate being made aware of this slip if any, and showing proper courtesy would put visits by UK warships in a much better light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 [OK this submarine was navigating on the surface and not firing weapons or anything, so seems innocent enough, however I'd think it should still be showing its flag - but I can't see any ensign flying in the photos, but it's hard to tell at the resolution in the copies posted. Did you see one Jimcalagon? If LOS Convention applies, and it wasn't flying a flag, then IoM could request to comply with this, and if disregarded, then could require the submarine to leave Manx waters immediately. I don't know what would happen if this was disregarded - send out the Barrule? Sound the siren? Call in the Royal Navy? Send a strongly worded letter to DCA, FCO, MoD or whoever? Load squeeze Tony Brown into a torpedo tube. Light blue touch-paper. Retire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Fugit Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Light blue touch-paper but we all know it's dark blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeddan Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Load squeeze Tony Brown into a torpedo tube. Light blue touch-paper. Retire. In absence of torpedo tubes in IoM, maybe improvise a catapult from strips of rubber from old conveyor belt. Alternative might be to just hurl TB over cliffs in general direction of submarine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titanic Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 What a fuss Regardless of why she was in the bay, well I reckon she was about three miles out, which is still in Manx waters, it was nice to see a submarine off the island's coast, and she is bloody big enough not to be a hazard to shipping while riding on the surface. Boat spotters reckon it is HMS Victorious, a Vanguard class on sea trails after a multi million pound refit before re-entering service in 2009. It's been a good year for ships in Douglas bay this year with the Ark Royal, QE2 and now huge sub. Excuse the quality of the image below, as mentioned before, the sub was at the limited of camera lens. The outline is a Vanguard class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 sounds like a replay of 1765 - After there were so many cutters and spies in every harbour and about this Isle, the merchants applyed to the Govr who with the approbation of the Council agreed to dispense with the particular forms time and place of entering and landing their teas, which liberty it was plain they would have taken and all your Graces force could not have prevented, for even civil processes could not be served where that business was carryed on - wherefore the merchts latterly had boats stationed to meet their ships in the channel and in the night to pilot them unto certain bye-creeks where they had men ready to discharge the ship and conceal the cargo in a few hours. the English government had threatened to (and partly did) place warships in every port until the Duke capitulated (see http://www.manxnotebook.com/history/ap/ap_33b17.htm - tea was then the most convenient article run between the Island and the adjacent shores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeddan Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 sounds like a replay of 1765 - After there were so many cutters and spies in every harbour and about this Isle, the merchants applyed to the Govr who with the approbation of the Council agreed to dispense with the particular forms time and place of entering and landing their teas, which liberty it was plain they would have taken and all your Graces force could not have prevented, for even civil processes could not be served where that business was carryed on - wherefore the merchts latterly had boats stationed to meet their ships in the channel and in the night to pilot them unto certain bye-creeks where they had men ready to discharge the ship and conceal the cargo in a few hours. the English government had threatened to (and partly did) place warships in every port until the Duke capitulated (see http://www.manxnotebook.com/history/ap/ap_33b17.htm - tea was then the most convenient article run between the Island and the adjacent shores. A big difference though. This submarine is in Manx territorial waters on 'innocent passage'. In 1765, the British blockage and then intrusion into Manx waters was a belligerent act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbms Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 I heard it was on trials after a refit in Barrow but has had some problems. Every time they take it out to sea people say it sinks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollag Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 A curiosity from the 60's was HMS Totem that berthed in Douglas for all to visit, really cool for us little uns cos it appeared huge. Anyhoo, not long after it was sold to Israel who promptly headed off for the Med. Not long prior to this the Israelies had "nicked" a load of gunboats from the french who spat the gallic dummy out big style. HMS Totem disappeared with all hands in the Med, rumored to have been downed by the Frogs as punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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