ai_Droid Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 But all these problems are a result of the drug being illegal. If it were legal, would the problems be worse? I suspect not, but I don't know because there is very little objective information available, and a huge amount of emotive claptrap. An interesting hypothetical argument, but today large scale production and sale of cocaine is illegal worldwide, so I don't see how it fits in with criticising this sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cret Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I wouldn't mind so much if the courts doubled up an all sentences and locked up for years all those scumbags who beat innocent people up every weekend on the prom Amen to that. Where's the 'message' for those kind of yobs? Got to catch the gutless bastards first though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LQQ Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 But all these problems are a result of the drug being illegal. If it were legal, would the problems be worse? I suspect not, but I don't know because there is very little objective information available, and a huge amount of emotive claptrap. An interesting hypothetical argument, but today large scale production and sale of cocaine is illegal worldwide, so I don't see how it fits in with criticising this sentence. Well brought back on track - the thread was drifting (interesting though the drift was/is) In this case it wasn't the legality of the criminal act it was the severity of the sentence compared with violent crimes and other similar crimes that provoked the thread. Whilst drug dealing is illegal I would want to see drug dealers locked up. I just don't think they should be going to jail for longer than rapists and perpetrators of vicious assaults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 .......I would want to see drug dealers locked up. I just don’t think they should be going to jail for longer than rapists and perpetrators of vicious assaults. I fully agree. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 In this case it wasn’t the legality of the criminal act it was the severity of the sentence compared with violent crimes and other similar crimes that provoked the thread. Whilst drug dealing is illegal I would want to see drug dealers locked up. I just don’t think they should be going to jail for longer than rapists and perpetrators of vicious assaults. A very complicated issue, and one that's very emotive. Rape and assault are both hideous invasive crimes for the victims, and deserve harsh punishment. From what I understand of the law, one of the important aspects is the mens rea, the guilty mind. I think in the eyes of the law knowingly and calculatingly living a life of serious crime is worse than losing your mind in the heat of the moment and thumping someone. That's probably not much comfort to the person getting thumped, but that's how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LQQ Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I think in the eyes of the law knowingly and calculatingly living a life of serious crime is worse than losing your mind in the heat of the moment and thumping someone. That's probably not much comfort to the person getting thumped, but that's how it works. There is a difference but I guess you could argue that if you are the sort of person to loose your temper and thump someone today what will stop you doing it tomorrow? It is the same with drink - he such a nice man he only gets violent when he drinks, and he only drinks at the weekends, Thrusday and every other Wednesday. Anyway ai_Driod it's been nice arguing with you - espcially on an emotive topic - as you, and the other contributors, have managed to keep it more like a debate and less like a slanging match. A very rare feat on a forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Anyway ai_Driod it's been nice arguing with you - espcially on an emotive topic - as you, and the other contributors, have managed to keep it more like a debate and less like a slanging match. A very rare feat on a forum. Likewise, do call again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Yes, perhaps, but where do you stop? Legalise heroin? Crack? Why not? Make Heroin Legal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 In this case it wasn’t the legality of the criminal act it was the severity of the sentence compared with violent crimes and other similar crimes that provoked the thread. Whilst drug dealing is illegal I would want to see drug dealers locked up. I just don’t think they should be going to jail for longer than rapists and perpetrators of vicious assaults. A very complicated issue, and one that's very emotive. Rape and assault are both hideous invasive crimes for the victims, and deserve harsh punishment. From what I understand of the law, one of the important aspects is the mens rea, the guilty mind. I think in the eyes of the law knowingly and calculatingly living a life of serious crime is worse than losing your mind in the heat of the moment and thumping someone. That's probably not much comfort to the person getting thumped, but that's how it works. But in the case of our friendly neighbourhood drug dealer, he's simply providing a service to people who want to buy. Contrary to the Daily Mail myth, drug dealers don't attempt to push their wares onto unsuspecting members of the public, the punters go looking for them. If a fully grown adult goes to another full grown adult to purchase a substance which they willingly ingest, knowing full well the potential effects and/or risks (y'know, like when you buy a bottle of wine from Tesco), and in doing so they don't steal anything or harm anyone else, then where the hell is the crime? The problem with drugs laws is that you're attempting to criminalise human nature, namely that some folks like getting high from time to time. You may as well attempt to criminalise mountain climbing or parachute jumping (deliver a buzz but really quite dangerous!). Much of the harm/crime associated with drugs is because they're illegal, that's not to say that drugs wouldn't continue to be a problem if legalised (see also, alcohol and tobacco), but at least it's then in an open arena where it can be dealt with in a sensible and constructive manner, which is a long way removed from where we are at the moment. To my mind it's unconscionable that a rapist can go to prison for less time than some geezer selling coke to people who like getting mashed at the weekend - but that's what's happened here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Yes, perhaps, but where do you stop? Legalise heroin? Crack? Why not? Make Heroin Legal Good article. I was aware of much of it, in particular the fact that heroin is not intrinsically harmful, but it's nice to see the arguments laid out so cogently. Thanks for posting. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxy Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Yes, perhaps, but where do you stop? Legalise heroin? Crack? Why not? Make Heroin Legal Good article. I was aware of much of it, in particular the fact that heroin is not intrinsically harmful, but it's nice to see the arguments laid out so cogently. Thanks for posting. S Interesting article and it seems strange that the Government involved, appears to be so negative by stopping something that worked. Why?Who gains financially? One would almost think that they made money out of it. No......... never....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebees Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 QUOTE (thebees @ Oct 20 2008, 10:48 PM) *Not all people who use drugs are addled maniacs, don't believe all the hype. 15 years is absolutely ridiculous, I hope the person gets less if there's an appeal. Cocaine isn't a particularly nice drug, I've never really seen the attraction but some people like it, each to their own - you can always say 'no' (all by yourself, without the help of the nanny state). Unfortunately some three-quarters of all UK crack and heroin users admit to funding their habit via crime. Not hype, fact. And they do commit a HUGE amount of crime. That said, a rather high percentage of drug users are not addicts and neither do they steal to fund their drug taking, the people to whom you refer would have 'social problems' regardless (no job, little money, nothing to do, devil makes work and all that other sociology pap) there is no easy solution but prohibition is not working. People make an informed choice when taking drugs, its not like they don't know the risks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyboarder Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 He played the game and got caught out, oh well, there you go, lol,lol. still, FIFTEEN years, you gotta laugh really..... ; )) good job he's only a youngster...... lol........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 The problem with drugs laws is that you're attempting to criminalise human nature Isn't that true of all laws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 The problem with drugs laws is that you're attempting to criminalise human nature Isn't that true of all laws? To an extent, yes, maybe. The difference with drugs laws is that all too often the 'victim' is a willing adult participant in their own actions and the consequences of those actions, whatever they might be. A rapist or a burglar or the random pissed-up fuckhead on the prom who kicks the shit out of someone for a laugh, all of these people create an easily identifiable victim, someone who wanted nothing to do with the person in question. The difference with drugs is that for an awful lot of the time, it's just one adult voluntarily buying something off another adult to achieve a certain effect, no one gets coerced into anything. Please don't misunderstand my overall point here - drugs can be, and very often are, a very negative force in far too many lives (and I include alcohol and tobacco in that list), my point is that the current way that society as a whole attempts to deal with these problems is woefully lacking, and simply creates more harm and societal damage when we could and should be doing a lot better by thinking differently and approaching the problem differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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