Buying Local

[pongo]

collectivization ?

[Sebrof]

Manx farmers could produce unsubsidised milk at a lower cost per litre than milk imported from the UK. The same is almost certainly true for beef, sheep, arable.

 

Why should they be able to undercut UK farmers, with their lower transport and labour costs and larger farms?

 

S

[Sebrof]

Economies of scale - how could our milk / meat plants compete with large factories who have the same / similar fixed costs?

I covered that in earlier posts in this thread. Consider if compared to UK producer, Manx farmers had cheaper fertiliser, used less concentrate, had higher yield herd, used significantly less labour to produce the same. (and then on top of that didn't also have to import using the ferry).

 

Well, of course. IF Manx farmers had cheaper fertiliser, higher yields, lower labour costs, cheap fuel, 100,000 acre farms, and a free ferry service, then yes they could undercut UK farmers.

 

But you haven't explained how this is all going to happen.

 

S

[Frances]

Skeddan - I'm loathe to get into argument with you (I just don't have the time) but judging from your comments I suspect you have never set foot on the Island. The Island stands in ratio to Uk approx 1:1000 and probably about 1% of the Lancashire urban sprawl thus supplying the Island from Lancashire is no big thing - 2 standard 20ft shipping containers could probably supply the Island's daily need for milk - probably adding 2-5p at most/litre and as UK milk prices are about 20p/litre lower than those on Island, imports would just dominate - I understand there are only a small number of dairy herds left on the Island so some rationalisation has already taken place.

.

Douglas harbour is set up for passenger and ro-ro trade but with some coastal tanker traffic (as also into Peel) - Ramsey can handle trade traffic but again relatively small coastal trade vessels

[Skeddan]

Economies of scale - how could our milk / meat plants compete with large factories who have the same / similar fixed costs?

I covered that in earlier posts in this thread. Consider if compared to UK producer, Manx farmers had cheaper fertiliser, used less concentrate, had higher yield herd, used significantly less labour to produce the same. (and then on top of that didn't also have to import using the ferry).

 

Well, of course. IF Manx farmers had cheaper fertiliser, higher yields, lower labour costs, cheap fuel, 100,000 acre farms, and a free ferry service, then yes they could undercut UK farmers.

 

But you haven't explained how this is all going to happen.

Go back to earlier posts and look at what I wrote. BTW I did not say 'cheap fuel' or '100,000 acre farms' or 'free ferry service'.

 

BTW if run as one big(ish) farm it would be 104,468 acres - so it would be roughly a 100,000 acre farm (singular).

 

I think even with slightly more expensive fuel than UK farmers and cost of shipping across, I'd think with everything else IoM could still undercut UK farmers.

[gazza]

There are a number of extremely good farmers over here, but also a number of not interested and lazy ones. We have the problem of Manx crab clawing ts way through the industry at every level.

 

I do think there is mileage for manx farming to be much more profitable but it must be embraced by the whole sector.

Isn't this itself a good reason to end subsidies. If not, then the lazy and not interested ones will drag everything down. Without subsidies, they will either have to make a go of it or get out.

 

 

But at the end of the day supermarkets are bale to supply foreign produced food much cheaper - no issue there

But this is exactly the issue. Manx farmers could produce unsubsidised milk at a lower cost per litre than milk imported from the UK. The same is almost certainly true for beef, sheep, arable. At the moment Manx farming is so inefficient that foreign food imported by ferry will still be cheaper - no issue there.

 

 

 

So, as I said before the effect of paying £9m of taxpayers money in subsidies is to keep the Manx farming industry inefficient, unproductive and for local food to be more expensive than it would otherwise be.

 

skedden how on earth do you think that the iom could produce food cheaper than anywhere eles in the world

your mad

also, where are your facts for saying that Manx farming is inefficient, your talking crap now, and to be honest that is a big insult to most farmers on the island,

 

who i would like to add work more than 10 hours a day at least everyday for a pittance,

i would say most dairy farmers work at least 12-15 hours a day, sometimes more

i know my old man used to be up at 5 every moring, and part from maybe haveing an hour in the day for food and drink, diden come back in the house till 8 at night, my mum did much the same hours as him, but she had 2 little kids to look after and prob even worse as we got older lol,

come calveing time wich would be for bout 2 months, including lambing, my dad woulden go to bed, he be sleeping on the couch as he be up every hour or so to check on them,

 

my dad had 2 sick days off in 40 years of farming and only ever 1 day off as a hol, even when the man was on dieing of some flu or bug, he get up milk do his jobs that he could do and go back to bed, but he be back up again to milk at night,

 

but all that work was inefficient by your statment, as he must have been doing it all wrong, and just putting his hand out for all the payments he would get,

 

do u think subs pay all our wagers, that we just farm because its a lazy way out a way to get cash for northing,

the sub cash on milk do u know how much that is!!!!, please tell me as you seam to know a lot more about this then most,

 

only last month did one dairy farm just go out of the milk, and he was a big farmer for the iom, the reason why, hes 2 big to run it on his own, staff is hard to find, and when u do find staff willing to do the work thay cost a lot, which for that sort of job u want a lot,

the costs dont add up so pulls out,

 

also your thing off. used less concentrate, had higher yield herd,

well lets just look at that, it shows you dont have a clue about farming at all,

 

you cant have higher yielding heards with out the use of lots of concentrate, you take away concentrate in any form and the yield will allways drop,

why is there less milk in winter than summer!!!!! becuase natural concentrate in the grass in the summer is better than winter so higher yileds,

 

uptill this post, i thought u had some gd thinking going on, while i know that most if not any off tehm would work, its still gd to have someone think about things like it,

but this post you seam to have fallin into the farmers are the scum of the earth thay do everything wrong and just take cash and run,

 

could u please explain what your base your thoughts of farming on, like have u any understanding of the way a farm works from the inside looking out, do u know farmers u spoke to to find out, or is all this thinking just from what u read and see in the papers news and what u think farmers are,

[Lee54]

Ive never met a poor Farmer on the Island but have met plenty of wealthy ones

[gazza]

Ive never met a poor Farmer on the Island but have met plenty of wealthy ones

 

ha ha o the old ones are the best,

[Lee54]

Ive never met a poor Farmer on the Island but have met plenty of wealthy ones

 

ha ha o the old ones are the best,

 

And are based on the truth

[gazza]

Ive never met a poor Farmer on the Island but have met plenty of wealthy ones

 

ha ha o the old ones are the best,

 

And are based on the truth

 

no not really,

while there maybe some rich farmers in the island there all not rich,

[Lee54]

Heres your answer get digging

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/isleofman/content/art...s_feature.shtml

[Skeddan]

2 standard 20ft shipping containers could probably supply the Island's daily need for milk - probably adding 2-5p at most/litre and as UK milk prices are about 20p/litre lower than those on Island, imports would just dominate - I understand there are only a small number of dairy herds left on the Island so some rationalisation has already taken place.

I'm not sure I get the point you are making. Is it that Manx farming is so inefficient and expensive that even with cost of shipping from UK imports are still cheaper? OK.

 

Are you saying that Manx farming is as productive and efficient as it ever could be? That's where I disagree.

 

Is it that even though Manx farming been rationalised as far as possible, imports are still cheaper - therefore Manx farming isn't subsidised it will die? That assumes Manx farming is as productive and efficient as it ever could be.

 

Is it that the Island is too small to really have a farming sector - it's really more of an allotment? - with subsidies

 

I think clearly IoM would have surplus to domestic requirements and so would have to export. If take milk, then it would make much more sense to be producing high value cheeses than exporting milk that is slightly cheaper but would cost more due to shipping cost. 2-5ppl is by no means insignificant.

Douglas harbour is set up for passenger and ro-ro trade but with some coastal tanker traffic (as also into Peel) - Ramsey can handle trade traffic but again relatively small coastal trade vessels

Fertiliser cost is a major component in the agricultural sector. Yes may have to invest in infrastructure, but reduced costs would mean recoup very quickly. Ferry adds £40 per tonne. Take a 10,000 tonne shipment each year and assume saving equal to this amount. Total saved per annum = £400,000. A 10,000 DWT vessel isn't huge - probably the smallest.

 

£9m p.a. currently going on subsidies would be better spent on investment into infrastructure so farming sector can be competitive. I doubt the cost to do this would be prohibitive. If nothing else you use tenders - like they do in South Pacific islands. There are other possibilities which should be evaluated - but all will almost certainly be very much cheaper than buying at retail prices from UK middlemen and paying £40 tonne on top of this to ship it to IoM.

[Sebrof]

Economies of scale - how could our milk / meat plants compete with large factories who have the same / similar fixed costs?

I covered that in earlier posts in this thread. Consider if compared to UK producer, Manx farmers had cheaper fertiliser, used less concentrate, had higher yield herd, used significantly less labour to produce the same. (and then on top of that didn't also have to import using the ferry).

 

Well, of course. IF Manx farmers had cheaper fertiliser, higher yields, lower labour costs, cheap fuel, 100,000 acre farms, and a free ferry service, then yes they could undercut UK farmers.

 

But you haven't explained how this is all going to happen.

Go back to earlier posts and look at what I wrote. BTW I did not say 'cheap fuel' or '100,000 acre farms' or 'free ferry service'.

 

BTW if run as one big(ish) farm it would be 104,468 acres - so it would be roughly a 100,000 acre farm (singular).

 

I think even with slightly more expensive fuel than UK farmers and cost of shipping across, I'd think with everything else IoM could still undercut UK farmers.

 

Here's a couple of examples from your earlier posts:

 

"It could well even produce at much lower cost than UK" (My emphasis.)

 

"Buy fertiliser at spot rates"

 

The first statement is frankly ridiculous.

 

The second one suggests that this is a trick that UK farmers haven't cottoned onto, which (if it's a sensible suggestion) seems unlikely. But is it a sensible suggestion? Spot rates are fine when there is a surplus of supply, but not much good when demand exceeds supply. Wise commodity buyers buy well ahead, they don't buy spot.

 

I am afraid that you are big on assertions, but few of them stand up.

 

S

[Skeddan]

gazza - please don't get me wrong - I'm not saying farm labourers don't work damn hard, put in the hours and get little money. But from figures I've seen (Andersons) Manx dairy farmers use 4 times more manhours than a highly efficient farm would. This farm manages a herd of 650 (to expand to 1000) with 2.6 permanent staff.

 

http://www.nzgrazing.co.nz/articles/dairy-...es/enton-farms/

 

Yes - they have a 50 bail rotary which is fully computerised and so on. Having the right technology is one of the reasons they need less manpower and are highly efficient.

 

Peeling potatoes by hand is bloody hard work - no insult to the people doing that, but if doing industrial scale, it's a lot more efficient to use a potato peeling machine. If it takes 1 person to operate when before it took 20, that doesn't mean 19 were slackers and good for nothings. To do it by hand even though it makes no difference to quality and makes it more expensive isn't the way to go if trying to run a competitive business. It is a way of keeping people in jobs that aren't really necessary - a kind of job creation scheme - they still have to work bloody hard while doing that though.

 

the sub cash on milk do u know how much that is!!!!, please tell me as you seam to know a lot more about this then most,

Figures I have are 2.7ppl as milk support payment. Which hardly helps with very tiny margins - it only eases the struggle a little - probably only just enough so people don't give up (well hopefully most of the time).

 

That's direct sub - there's also sub to arable - so grazing and feed is indirectly subsidised. Sure the dairly famer might not feel this - but it's all part of the cost of producing that litre of milk.

 

Re concentrate and yield. First yield improvement through breed type. Kiwi Cross for example give higher yield. Improve yield through breed.

 

Yes, I do understand about concentrate and yield. Not saying reducing concentrate will improve yield (Doh) Improving yield is by breed type. Reducing concentrate is to reduce costs. Again balancing act of economics - or agrobusiness now with very a science (and not my area at all). Depends on soil type, options for grassland management, how that can be improved, and cost of concentrate and whether reduction by x might be more cost efficient even if have slightly lower yield. (and having breeds which give max yield for grassland type with least amount of concentrates - e.g. Kiwi Cross).

 

What that means - spend a bit on grassland management. Maybe not spend so much on concentrate. Maybe get a slightly lower yield, but savings will still outweigh lower yield. Max yield at any cost doesn't always make sense - and cost of land and fixed costs etc. is factor in all that calculation. You have to get it fine tuned - then you are producing as cost-efficiently as possible.

 

What you say about local farmer getting out of milk production. It shows that farming is going to get harder and harder - even with subsidies - unless make real big change. How big was the herd? 2.6 permanent staff for 650-1000. That's the kind of example to follow if want to be competitive.

 

And yes, I have spent time on farms - mainly dairy and sheep - including the one linked to above. However those were prosperous efficient NZ farms. I haven't seen the kind of farming you describe 'from the inside out'.

 

And I haven't studied Manx farming and I am just basing this on the little I've been able to pick up from the Andersons Report. I'm not making 'concrete costed proposals'. What I am saying is that it strikes me that Manx farming is not currently organised very efficiently - the holdings are too small, and there aren't the kind of efficiencies there might be (as compared to practice in NZ). Maybe there is a reason why Manx farming could not also be equally efficient, but there seem to be ways it possibly could be made more efficient - e.g. 'pooling' farms, direct shipments of fertiliser, etc. etc.

 

Now if people want to knock it and say it won't work - that seems a bit Manx crab. You can't bring in fertiliser except on the ferry, you can't expect farmers to start working together in this way, or there isn't the money to invest in the infrastructure and technology - while spending £9m on subsidies (not to mention god knows what on runway extension etc.). In that case it is giving up on farming in IoM.

 

My point is just this - instead of looking only at subsidies and how best to decouple these, DAFF or whoever should do study and look into what might be done to make the whole farming sector more competitive. I'm just trying to explain that there may well be ways it could be.

 

gazza, I'm sorry I caused offence - I really didn't mean to - farm labouring is bloody tough yards, no doubt about that. I'd like to see farmers do well, not struggle on until they're finally driven out of business. (which will happen in next 10-15 years for most unless something is done).

[gazza]

ok now u explained it a bit better no offence taken,

 

like i said u have gd idears but thay just woulden work here, its not being manx crab its just i know the manx industry,

 

also the anderson report well, to be fair some of it is a joke, and some of the things thay say should be done are mad,

 

the way thay caluclate the man hours need is a complete farce to be honest, i cant remember the figures,

but i know one farm where thay said there should be 5 staff employed to do the work 2 are doing!!!!

for one thay all be board all day and 2 thay could never affored it,

 

theres is no way that u can make farms bigger over here, not unless thay get bought out by anorther farmer,

you will never see 2-4 farms all going together,

1 2 many cooks and all that,

2 the blocks of land u see away could be 500 acers all in one spot, here u lucky to get 100 with a main rd going though the middle of it,

which makes life harder and more expensive,

 

also this Kiwi Cross your on about, i cant find any figures on it for yeilds or butter fats or anything, maybe u have some or know where to look,

but u say its a high yielder cow, compaired to what breed