Buying Local

[pongo]

Forbes , I am more than willing to change my opinion on this. But if the likes of Amazon , Play , Tesco still operate out of the Channel Islands , why would they do this if the Non VAT incentive was not there.

 

You seem to be pretty much arguing with yourself on that one small point. Everyone agrees that stuff from the Channel Islands comes via a VAT loophole.

 

I very much doubt that the VAT on a few plastic discs is going to make a huge difference to the viability of the IOM over the next few years. After that DVDs will be redundant. The record shops have no viable long term future.

 

In the US Amazon sells 256 kbps DRM free music to download. I hope that comes to Europe soon. It would be a good alternative to iTunes. CDs and DVDs are clutter to me. I don't want them around.

[Slim]

I very much doubt that the VAT on a few plastic discs is going to make a huge difference to the viability of the IOM over the next few years. After that DVDs will be redundant. The record shops have no viable long term future.

 

In the US Amazon sells 256 kbps DRM free music to download. I hope that comes to Europe soon. It would be a good alternative to iTunes. CDs and DVDs are clutter to me. I don't want them around.

 

 

I notice hmv are now doing 2nd hand games in their shops, that's certainly a desparate company reinventing itself to find a market.

 

Play.com do drm free mp3 downloads, works very well. I'm not sure £2 cheaper than the physical cd is cheap enough, but it's about the best service I've found. Shame there's a couple of big labels that aren't on there though.

[MarcusAurelius]

Orange box is $47, £29.50, it's 23 on amazon, so cheaper. Steam doesn't show you that you need to pay vat until you're logged in, so you're not quoting the correct price. Fallout 3, £36.90 on steam £27 on amazon.

 

As to the download speed, that's a pretty extreme example and it's more than one game. A dvd iso takes about 4 hours to download on my connection. Certainly quicker than postage, and fast enough for me to want all games to be delivered this way. Distributing software on disk is dead, its just that games haven't realised it fully yet.

 

Sneaky that , never noticed that they add VAT.TBH its not going to happen soon , but it will be inevitable that most game , dvd purchases etc.. will be done online one day , but you are a reasonably savvy pc person , the average customer in our shop doesn't have a clue what an OS , Graphics Card , RAM etc.. is.

 

You say it takes you about 4 hours to download a dvd iso file , yet what is the biggest iso file you have seen ? 8 or 9 Gb ? What about a blu-ray disc that has the capability to hold maybe 40 or 50Gb. At current speeds it would take a long time to download a file that size , yet we have PS3 games in store that have that amount of information on them.

 

So if you don't get games downloaded from Steam , where do you get them ?

[Slim]

Sneaky that , never noticed that they add VAT.TBH its not going to happen soon , but it will be inevitable that most game , dvd purchases etc.. will be done online one day , but you are a reasonably savvy pc person , the average customer in our shop doesn't have a clue what an OS , Graphics Card , RAM etc.. is.

 

You say it takes you about 4 hours to download a dvd iso file , yet what is the biggest iso file you have seen ? 8 or 9 Gb ? What about a blu-ray disc that has the capability to hold maybe 40 or 50Gb. At current speeds it would take a long time to download a file that size , yet we have PS3 games in store that have that amount of information on them.

 

So if you don't get games downloaded from Steam , where do you get them ?

 

Oh come on, this stuff isn't hard, you give em your credit card and you press download. World of Warcrafts a good example of a hugely popular game with non techies that's buyable online now.

 

Blu ray disks are a bit misleading, typical sony stunt. Lots of data is either duplicated on them because they're so slow or not compressed because they've enough space not to bother and deal with the decompression overhead, so a download version of that game would be a lot smaller. This is pretty easy to spot, as many ps3 blu ray games are also on the pc or 360 on dvd with no noticable difference.

 

As to where i buy games online, Live mostly. Though I did buy world of goo last week directly from the dev, and a pleasure it was too, small 80mb download, no drm, no bullsshit. The future!

[MarcusAurelius]

Forbes , I am more than willing to change my opinion on this. But if the likes of Amazon , Play , Tesco still operate out of the Channel Islands , why would they do this if the Non VAT incentive was not there.

 

You seem to be pretty much arguing with yourself on that one small point. Everyone agrees that stuff from the Channel Islands comes via a VAT loophole.

 

I very much doubt that the VAT on a few plastic discs is going to make a huge difference to the viability of the IOM over the next few years. After that DVDs will be redundant. The record shops have no viable long term future.

 

In the US Amazon sells 256 kbps DRM free music to download. I hope that comes to Europe soon. It would be a good alternative to iTunes. CDs and DVDs are clutter to me. I don't want them around.

 

But apparently games over £18 ( or cd's , dvd's for that matter ) do incur VAT.I just don't know !!

 

As regards downloading music legally from the net , don't HMV already offer a download service anyway.But if we are going to totally go digital and just download music , movies , games etc.. then won't that cause a problem for all the retailers on the island.It will mean chain stores along Strand Street will go and what will replace them ? Will there be enough entreprenuerial types on the island to look for niche areas that are not currently getting served on the island or will it mean all those people will lose their jobs when the Strand St shops close down.What will manx people who are left unemployed do ? What if there is no money available to start new businesses ?

[MarcusAurelius]

As regards downloading music legally from the net , don't HMV already offer a download service anyway.But if we are going to totally go digital and just download music , movies , games etc.. then won't that cause a problem for all the retailers on the island.It will mean chain stores along Strand Street will go and what will replace them ? Will there be enough entreprenuerial types on the island to look for niche areas that are not currently getting served on the island or will it mean all those people will lose their jobs when the Strand St shops close down.What will manx people who are left unemployed do ? What if there is no money available to start new businesses ?

 

Something else.

 

You don't see any ropemakers or saddlers on the high street any more, but the high streets still there.

 

Not in Ramsey allegedly

[Slim]

As regards downloading music legally from the net , don't HMV already offer a download service anyway.But if we are going to totally go digital and just download music , movies , games etc.. then won't that cause a problem for all the retailers on the island.It will mean chain stores along Strand Street will go and what will replace them ? Will there be enough entreprenuerial types on the island to look for niche areas that are not currently getting served on the island or will it mean all those people will lose their jobs when the Strand St shops close down.What will manx people who are left unemployed do ? What if there is no money available to start new businesses ?

 

Something else.

 

You don't see any ropemakers or saddlers on the high street any more, but the high streets still there.

[MarcusAurelius]

Oh come on, this stuff isn't hard, you give em your credit card and you press download. World of Warcrafts a good example of a hugely popular game with non techies that's buyable online now.

 

But most people's pc's these days have more than enough to cope with WoW so they will just download it and it will work fine.But let's say you had a technophobe that had no idea about PC's and he decides he wants to download a demanding game like Crysis.He won't know that he would need a high spec pc to run a game like that.

 

I had someone in the shop today looking to buy Spore and he did not have a clue what OS , Graphics Card etc.. he had in his pc.All he knew was that it cost £1000 12 months ago.And that is what your generally up against with most members of the public.

 

 

Blu ray disks are a bit misleading, typical sony stunt. Lots of data is either duplicated on them because they're so slow or not compressed because they've enough space not to bother and deal with the decompression overhead, so a download version of that game would be a lot smaller. This is pretty easy to spot, as many ps3 blu ray games are also on the pc or 360 on dvd with no noticable difference.

 

As to where i buy games online, Live mostly. Though I did buy world of goo last week directly from the dev, and a pleasure it was too, small 80mb download, no drm, no bullsshit. The future!

 

The potential for Blu-Ray is great though , and I am cynical of Sony.What media have they ever been behind before thats done well.However if they can utilise all the space available on a Blu-Ray disc then you should see some quite amazing PS3 games.

 

I must say the convenience of being able to download off the net is brilliant , but for the foreseeable future there is ( I think ) a reasonable percentage of people who like to go into a shop and buy something tangible.

[pongo]

if we are going to totally go digital and just download music , movies , games etc.. then won't that cause a problem for all the retailers on the island.It will mean chain stores along Strand Street will go and what will replace them ? Will there be enough entreprenuerial types on the island to look for niche areas that are not currently getting served on the island or will it mean all those people will lose their jobs when the Strand St shops close down.What will manx people who are left unemployed do ?

 

Lots of people work for the telecommunication companies. And lots of people here work in the various distribution chains. And people here work for companies who have contracts to fix our computers under warrantee from the manufacturers etc. And lots of shops are doing okay selling iPods and stuff.

 

When we buy stuff online - whether digitally or for actual physical delivery - local people are still employed getting it to us. And we benefit from the VAT on all those sales (apart form the loophole etc etc as above which we all more or less agree about).

 

There will always be other stuff to sell.

[MarcusAurelius]

There will always be other stuff to sell.

 

I suppose

[vikingdoom]

I find local produce substandard, potatoes have all gone to seed, carrots all have splits in them . bread is hard and often stale, and for the price it should be hand delivered to, my house. i think they send the best stuff across and leave the crap for us. i will buy cheapest every time, i now own a breadmaker so i dont have to pay through the nose to keep someone in a job in laxey flour mills. and i now grow my own vegetables so the heavily subsidised farmers can keep the animal fodder they pass off as food

[Sebrof]

I find local produce substandard,

 

i will buy cheapest every time,

 

Perhaps there is a connection.

 

S

[Sebrof]

Forbes , I am more than willing to change my opinion on this. But if the likes of Amazon , Play , Tesco still operate out of the Channel Islands , why would they do this if the Non VAT incentive was not there.

 

You seem to be pretty much arguing with yourself on that one small point. Everyone agrees that stuff from the Channel Islands comes via a VAT loophole.

 

I very much doubt that the VAT on a few plastic discs is going to make a huge difference to the viability of the IOM over the next few years. After that DVDs will be redundant. The record shops have no viable long term future.

 

In the US Amazon sells 256 kbps DRM free music to download. I hope that comes to Europe soon. It would be a good alternative to iTunes. CDs and DVDs are clutter to me. I don't want them around.

 

I argue with the word "loophole", which implies an oversight that people can exploit until the government cottons on. It's not an oversight. It would cost far more to levy VAT on individual low-value parcels that it would raise in revenue. Bear in mind that VAT on £18.00 amounts to £3.15.

 

So obviously, for people who sell low value items which don't cost much to post, the £18.00 concession provides a useful competitive advantage.

 

S

[Skeddan]

Sebrof - how is the VAT collected on purchase of goods costing £18.50? Doesn't the online retailer charge this and it gets credited so the import VAT is prepaid? Is requiring a change in an online ecommerce transaction 'not worth the effort' - do you really think would it cost more to collect that it would raise in revenue? (how much do you think the marginal extra cost is for charging VAT in an online transaction?).

 

I've never seen cost of collection mentioned as a reason for not closing the CD DVD Jersey loophole - rather it seemed the reason given in 2007 (after much delays) was to support Jersey growing online distribution industry. (i.e. the big retailers who've set up distribution operations there).

 

BTW - pongo is right - it hurts UK retailers just as much - at least the smaller domestic ones who haven't set up an offshore distribution centre. So what's the benefit, and why hasn't the UK closed this loophole? It sounds cynical but I can only think it is to support the big retailers who have set up online distribution in Jersey - giving them 'a useful competitive advantage'.

[matty]

I don't see how the VAT loophole on CDs and stuff affects IOM retailers any differently from how it would affect UK retailers.

 

Meanwhile - I'm totally in favour of buying local product (eg food) whenever it is possible. But when it comes to buying imports I see very little difference between keeping a shop in business or keeping the courier services and Post Office in business. And (with the obvious exception of stuff which is affected by this VAT loophole) - the IOM is getting the VAT back anyhow AFAIK.

 

I'm prepared to be wrong though. I'm certainly interested in supporting a local economy.

 

Personally I would far rather see local shops kept in business, even if it does mean paying a few pence more for some local produce.

 

For some people - especially older citizens who can't drive to the supermarket the local shop is their 'cultural center' - it's a place they might visit two or three times a day, catch up with their friends, have a bit of a gossip and pick up their groceries etc.

 

If the local shop goes, what happens to the rest of the community that don't have the means to drive, don't have the strength to carry a bunch of shopping bags home on the bus from a supermarket?

 

The whole 'buying local' thing for me isn't just about supporting farmers, flour mills, suppliers, distributors - it's about supporting the whole community.