Buying Local

[WTF]

the snag being the farmers can't sell meat to the public and all the meat the public can buy has to be processed through the abatoir, it's the law. if a farmer wants to kill and butcher something himself he can only use it to feed his IMMEDIATE family, no passing on cheap to distant relatives or friends.

does this follow on from a single abbatoir - it certainly wasn't the case up in the Scottish Islands as I recall all the butchers proudly displayed in the window the farm from where the meat on sale derived - also I understood under current EU regs it is supposed to be possible to determine the origin of each carcase and I understood that butcher's shops generally bought meat by the carcase and not ready sliced into joints etc

Admittedly it is all academic to me as I havn't eaten meat for many years

Frances - I may be wrong, but I think what WTF outline about use of an abattoir applies pretty much everywhere. Butcher's might show the farm from where the meat on sale was derived, but it would still go through an abattoir.

 

 

 

from an animal welfare /boat trip point of view i am for a local abatoir, but as we are effectively an 80K population town and the abatoir has to meet EU specs ( but they can't do horses there) it makes our meat expensive for us. couple that with far more farmers looking to make a living from the land than the land actually needs to use it all and it all gets more expensive.

 

WTF - I thought what makes the abattoir expensive is under-utilisation. If so, the problem isn't the size of the population of people, it's that the size of the population of livestock isn't enough to allow the abattoir to run competitively.

 

first bit, yes , this is right, the abatoir does know who put in which animal and knows who produced it when it leaves, but all tyhe meat is graded, i don't think a local butcher can request only joe bloggs lambs for his shop though

 

second bit,it may be under utilized, but it is also a combination of local production and that an abatoir built to the necessary EU spec can't be a little 2 man affair. you have to have A,B and C this and that, and don't forget the assistants assistant that has a job that needs keeping too. a bit like the steam packet but with suitable equipment for the job.

[Frances]

first bit, yes , this is right, the abatoir does know who put in which animal and knows who produced it when it leaves, but all tyhe meat is graded, i don't think a local butcher can request only joe bloggs lambs for his shop though

then why not - it's the same with aggregating for example all potatoes etc into a single pool - no individual farmer is given any encouragement to produce higher quality produce which would fetch a higher price - again to use French supermarket examples (and yes most French farms are larger than Manx) most large hypermarkets have a section of local produce often naming the farm.

[Slim]

However Slim , I do all the ordering , I hire all the staff we have , I decide what special offers we do , I pay all the bills , I pay the TAX & NI , what do you do ? I think its pretty poor that you offer opinions from the safety of your pc , yet in the real world what do you actually contribute ? Not very much I suspect !!

 

Opinions? I corrected you. It's not my opinion, you're just wrong.

 

What do I contribute? I pay tax and & NI too, you think you're some kind of hero?

 

I don't spread lies about my competitors.

 

You've posted sour grapes 'poor me' type stuff before, including misinformation about competitors such as Game. You chose to do what you do with, and good luck with it, but you're not a local producer, you're not relevant to this thread in my opinion and your bitching about how hard your chosen line of peddled goods is gets a bit wearing.

[Skeddan]

second bit,it may be under utilized, but it is also a combination of local production and that an abatoir built to the necessary EU spec can't be a little 2 man affair. you have to have A,B and C this and that, and don't forget the assistants assistant that has a job that needs keeping too. a bit like the steam packet but with suitable equipment for the job.

WTF - could you explain what you mean by 'local production' and how this makes the abattoir expensive. (or do you mean local production, being less efficient or more costly, makes meat more expensive?)

 

I understand meeting EU spec is more expensive than not, but everyone else in EU or exporting to EU would have to meet same spec, so I don't see this puts IoM farmers at any disadvantage or that it makes meat more expensive than imported meat.

 

Is it perhaps that the abattoir is too small and even with max utilisation there will always be a high differential is because it so much less economically efficient than large ones? Large abattoirs have economies of scale, but I wouldn't have thought that alone would make Manx meat uncompetitive. (This small-scale can also be used to advantage in focussed niche - less stress to animals, humane, better quality meat, etc. and a differentiator with UK which has opted for large scale abattoirs and closed smaller ones)

 

My guess is that as far as the abattoir is concerned, not having this running at optimal utilisation is what is really adding to Manx meat being overly expensive and less competitive.

 

I'd assume local production being less efficient and having higher costs also makes Manx meat more expensive and less competitive. I'd think if all farming on IoM were run as one big(ish) farm, there'd be significant efficiencies and lowering of costs. (It would mean the abattoir would be optimally utilised etc.). My guess is that there isn't the coordination and cooperation needed to make local production competitive, and tackling that is where the real challenge lies. A big part of the problem seems to me to be having too many farming coops (meat, dairy etc.) all of which are too small to be effective in their own right. I'd think it better to bring all farming under the a single cooperative management structure.

 

That done, it would be much easier then to optimise production and manage resources, and also have scale to tackle other factors - weaning rates, depreciation rates on farm machinery, throughput, finance costs, etc.

[WTF]

first bit, yes , this is right, the abatoir does know who put in which animal and knows who produced it when it leaves, but all tyhe meat is graded, i don't think a local butcher can request only joe bloggs lambs for his shop though

then why not - it's the same with aggregating for example all potatoes etc into a single pool - no individual farmer is given any encouragement to produce higher quality produce which would fetch a higher price - again to use French supermarket examples (and yes most French farms are larger than Manx) most large hypermarkets have a section of local produce often naming the farm.

 

when i had connections at the abatoir the carcases were inspected and given a grade. TQ for top quality and then 123 etc to something that was so poor it wouldn't make the grade. the farmer is paid on his gradings for his stock, so if he sends in crap lambs he gets crap money. when a butcher orders meat they may be able to specify ( i don't honestly know as i wasn't involved in that side ) only carcases of whatever grade for a price, but you couldn't turn round and say i want sir charles kerruish's sheep please. farmers don't put sheep in every week, if you only wanted meat from farmer A you'd only be getting it for a few weeks a year. anything that didn't grade the farmer could have back for his freezer for a nominal handling fee. i got fed up with lamb as a kid and only 25 years later do i now enjoy it once in a while. you tend to find that the better butchers have the better carcases though.

[WTF]

second bit,it may be under utilized, but it is also a combination of local production and that an abatoir built to the necessary EU spec can't be a little 2 man affair. you have to have A,B and C this and that, and don't forget the assistants assistant that has a job that needs keeping too. a bit like the steam packet but with suitable equipment for the job.

WTF - could you explain what you mean by 'local production' and how this makes the abattoir expensive. (or do you mean local production, being less efficient or more costly, makes meat more expensive?)

 

 

i mean that the local abatoir does not have the through put it could handle for a lot of the time, but the running costs are still similar during the quieter times. it is a bit of a sledgehammer to crack the local nut of production. in simple terms in made up numbers the cost of killing and processing a sheep her is 15 quid compared to 10 quid elsewhere.

[MarcusAurelius]

Opinions? I corrected you. It's not my opinion, you're just wrong.

 

What do I contribute? I pay tax and & NI too, you think you're some kind of hero?

 

I don't spread lies about my competitors.

 

You've posted sour grapes 'poor me' type stuff before, including misinformation about competitors such as Game. You chose to do what you do with, and good luck with it, but you're not a local producer, you're not relevant to this thread in my opinion and your bitching about how hard your chosen line of peddled goods is gets a bit wearing.

 

You think you're right but you are not.I don't think I am some kind of hero but I suspect that this poor little shop offers far more to the Island than anything you do.

 

So come on then Slim , its easy to have a go from the side.What do you do , who do you work for ? What marvellous service do you offer to the Island ?

 

What misinformation about Game have I posted ? Quotes please !!

 

I wonder if you are the lovely scouse lady manager's other half ?

[Skeddan]

i mean that the local abatoir does not have the through put it could handle for a lot of the time, but the running costs are still similar during the quieter times. it is a bit of a sledgehammer to crack the local nut of production. in simple terms in made up numbers the cost of killing and processing a sheep her is 15 quid compared to 10 quid elsewhere.

That makes sense WTF - what I was getting at by under-utilisation. If there was enough livestock going through the cost per carcass would come down - making it only a bit more than elsewhere - e.g. maybe down from 15 quid to 11 quid compared to 10 at one of the big UK abattoirs.

 

I don't know if it's feasible to have the abattoir close down for quiet times and doubt whether this would cut fixed costs much anyway, even if could have labour on that part time or seasonal basis. I'd think the most effective would be to increase local production so it's not such a small nut, and so the abattoir has enough going through it - i.e. output as many carcasses as can be for the fairly fixed cost of running it.

 

Do you know if that is at least theoretically possible - could IoM support that volume of livestock production? I wonder how much more it might be - twice current livestock production - three times?

[WTF]

i mean that the local abatoir does not have the through put it could handle for a lot of the time, but the running costs are still similar during the quieter times. it is a bit of a sledgehammer to crack the local nut of production. in simple terms in made up numbers the cost of killing and processing a sheep her is 15 quid compared to 10 quid elsewhere.

That makes sense WTF - what I was getting at by under-utilisation. If there was enough livestock going through the cost per carcass would come down - making it only a bit more than elsewhere - e.g. maybe down from 15 quid to 11 quid compared to 10 at one of the big UK abattoirs.

 

I don't know if it's feasible to have the abattoir close down for quiet times and doubt whether this would cut fixed costs much anyway, even if could have labour on that part time or seasonal basis. I'd think the most effective would be to increase local production so it's not such a small nut, and so the abattoir has enough going through it - i.e. output as many carcasses as can be for the fairly fixed cost of running it.

 

Do you know if that is at least theoretically possible - could IoM support that volume of livestock production? I wonder how much more it might be - twice current livestock production - three times?

 

 

they had not trouble shutting the place during the foot and mouth first time round. i doubt the islands farmers have the inclination to try and produce more than they need to make what passes as a living. they would in effect be spending more them selves and working harder and longer for little benefit and the middle men would still be taking the cream but more of it. and it would just mean even more meat to export at whatever cost?? it may be that they over produce for the locals now and some of the profit is used to subsidise the transport costs of shipping away?if you take the milk side of the thinks the creameries now have all but a few farmers signed up to them. look how many dairy's that delivered no longer do, it all goes to the creameries. and then we are back to in real terms, too many farmers trying to survive off the available land, times have changed and there are farms away half the size of the island with just a handfull of staff, if you only needed to make up 20 wage packets for the island instead of 200 wage packets, farming may be a fair living again. in typical local fashion there are more staff per job than necessary.

[Slim]

You think you're right but you are not.

 

If I'm wrong, then show me where I can get a vat free ps3 from amazon.

 

I don't think I am some kind of hero but I suspect that this poor little shop offers far more to the Island than anything you do.

 

A baffling assumption. What makes you say that? I'm not having a go from the side, I'm challenging what you say here, because I know it's incorrect. If you dont what what you say challenged on the forum, don't say it.

 

What misinformation about Game have I posted ? Quotes please !!

 

I wonder if you are the lovely scouse lady manager's other half ?

 

Heh, paranoia now. I've nowt to do with Game, I work in finance and I'm hardly anonymous. Quotes? Its been a while, but I remember some incorrect pricing claims about hmv and some wrong stuff about the points system in game.

 

I've nothing personal against you or anything, you just make a bit of a habit of this kind of thing. I think it's unfair for you to come here and give folks a guilt trip about buying consoles from amazon and claim their shirking vat. They're not. I think in your position you have to be careful that what you say about competitors is correct.

[MarcusAurelius]

Heh, paranoia now. I've nowt to do with Game, I work in finance and I'm hardly anonymous. Quotes? Its been a while, but I remember some incorrect pricing claims about hmv and some wrong stuff about the points system in game.

 

I've nothing personal against you or anything, you just make a bit of a habit of this kind of thing. I think it's unfair for you to come here and give folks a guilt trip about buying consoles from amazon and claim their shirking vat. They're not. I think in your position you have to be careful that what you say about competitors is correct.

 

What you mean when we did our low price on Halo 3.Well guess what our price was the lowest on the island but when it was pointed out that HMV had lowered theirs , we lowered ours below HMV.

 

Also the points system at game is 10 points for every £1 spent which equals £2.50 off for every £100 spent or in the case of preorders , you get double points.Guess what , we offer 1 point for every £1 spent which again equals £2.50 off for every £100 spent and again in the case of preorders , you also get double points with us.

 

Thats a funny statement 'come here and give folks a guilt trip.' Not feeling guilty are you ?

 

Just for clarification , you are anonymous to me , but if you like , you can supply me your name.Or are you the only person that works in finance on the island ?

[Skeddan]

i doubt the islands farmers have the inclination to try and produce more than they need to make what passes as a living. they would in effect be spending more them selves and working harder and longer for little benefit and the middle men would still be taking the cream but more of it. and it would just mean even more meat to export at whatever cost?? it may be that they over produce for the locals now and some of the profit is used to subsidise the transport costs of shipping away?if you take the milk side of the thinks the creameries now have all but a few farmers signed up to them. look how many dairy's that delivered no longer do, it all goes to the creameries. and then we are back to in real terms, too many farmers trying to survive off the available land, times have changed and there are farms away half the size of the island with just a handfull of staff, if you only needed to make up 20 wage packets for the island instead of 200 wage packets, farming may be a fair living again. in typical local fashion there are more staff per job than necessary.

WFT - I don't disagree with you, but I think this shows that farming isn't working as it should and is pretty dysfunctional. I don't see subsidies will sort that - if anything it will just prop up and paint over the cracks.

 

Who are the 'middle men' for livestock producers?

 

My guess is that the 'marketing cooperatives' haven't really got their act together and aren't managed in smartest way (probably because each is too small).

 

What do you see as an answer to this WTF? Do you think the 'one big(ish) farm' approach could possibly work?

[WTF]

i doubt the islands farmers have the inclination to try and produce more than they need to make what passes as a living. they would in effect be spending more them selves and working harder and longer for little benefit and the middle men would still be taking the cream but more of it. and it would just mean even more meat to export at whatever cost?? it may be that they over produce for the locals now and some of the profit is used to subsidise the transport costs of shipping away?if you take the milk side of the thinks the creameries now have all but a few farmers signed up to them. look how many dairy's that delivered no longer do, it all goes to the creameries. and then we are back to in real terms, too many farmers trying to survive off the available land, times have changed and there are farms away half the size of the island with just a handfull of staff, if you only needed to make up 20 wage packets for the island instead of 200 wage packets, farming may be a fair living again. in typical local fashion there are more staff per job than necessary.

WFT - I don't disagree with you, but I think this shows that farming isn't working as it should and is pretty dysfunctional. I don't see subsidies will sort that - if anything it will just prop up and paint over the cracks.

 

Who are the 'middle men' for livestock producers?

 

My guess is that the 'marketing cooperatives' haven't really got their act together and aren't managed in smartest way (probably because each is too small).

 

What do you see as an answer to this WTF? Do you think the 'one big(ish) farm' approach could possibly work?

 

subsidies are just painting over the cracks which is why there is great concern among farmers about the loss of them in a few years time, they are effectively benefits for farmers to allow them to keep what they are doing going regardless of its business plan.

 

the middle men if you will are those between farmer and householder, the transporter from farm to abbatoir ( used to be leeces for us ) the abatoir, then the butcher whether that be shoprite then their butchers or just harrison and garret. it is one of the few start to finish industries over here so boat trips shouldn't come into it. you could argue ramsey bakery ( when using manx grown 'flour' ) is also a local industry, and that too provides us with the most expensive bread option available allowing the supermarkets to over inflate the price of imported bread but still sell it cheaper than the local product. same with new zealand lamb and south african beef, it can travel halfway round the world and still be cheaper than local stuff.

 

an answer?? well the island being ONE big farm could sort it for the lucky farmer and his few dozen workers, but that would put a few hundred folks on the dole and politically it is better to give subsidies and pretent everyone has a viable job than to sack a load of folks and pay benefits. there would seem to be many over staffed businesses that could loose a few staff. government especially. strix seemed to keep getting grants and subsidies a few years back, manx airlines were let off paying taxes to keep them aloft?? for a few more months. whenever somewhere announces loosing a few staff the DOT erk tries to convince them to find another solution ( grant or subsidy?? ) and when nothing is found ( nnot enough subsidy?? ) nthey chirp on the radio about how hard they tried to find a solution. all a subsidy is is robbing all the taxpayers to support a few who can't run an economical business. and the sad fact is that some of the businesses that used to make money are now not and people cannot or will not diversify to survive, they just want to keep doing what they have always done.

[Skeddan]

WTF - you raise lots of interesting points and what you say here seems very sound and very much highlights the problems. Taxpayers money going to prop up uneconomical businesses which then carry on doing what they have always done, so won't get on their feet. No business plan or strategy for getting this to work, rather just using subsidies to prop it all up - at least until the wheels fall off. Local produce expensive, and allowing supermarkets to inflate price of imports... Total cost is much much higher than just the subsidies.

 

Rather than one big farm owned by one lucky farmer - have farms work together and run under a management plan that runs these as one enterprise (and sharing the profits of that with the farmers). Have that enterprise cut out the middle man, and start to work as an efficient value chain. (like the NZ model, only with the various producer cooperatives brought into a single organisation).

 

Yes, labour cost is high and over-intensive, and there would be a loss of jobs. But subsidies etc. is just brushing the problem under the carpet and not supporting real jobs. If the farming industry was revitalised and making money (as it might under that type model) it would be bringing in money rather than draining it as business goes down slippery slope.

 

Then as you say, need to diversify, building economically viable businesses rather than employing people to stay the same. If farming has sound business plan and strategy (and some investment) then this might well happen anyway. e.g. there might be food manufacturing (e.g. turning low-value commodity potatoes into higher value 'Manx traditional potato cakes'). The trouble is that such efforts seem to have been pretty weak - e.g. with range of cheeses such as pickled onion and chips and gravy flavoured cheese. If you were in the place of the one lucky farmer (or the farm manager for all the various farm holdings), I think you could see how there could be opportunities, and with a good management and marketing team who understand farming and food industry, there'd be good scope for a viable business which could be very profitable. Farmers could do very much better out of it than they are now.

 

Having a welfare state and farming dependent on benefits and income support seems loopy when there is no reason it shouldn't get back to work. It's like a sickness benefit that keeps it at home and in bed and unlikely to ever get healthy again. It sounds like the principle is to veneer over the problems, pretend its all ok, and no need to worry about putting in the work and effort to find real fixes. If that's so, it's not very good government IMO. Have I missed something - is there some good reason for this 'strategy'?

[WTF]

Rather than one big farm owned by one lucky farmer - have farms work together and run under a management plan that runs these as one enterprise (and sharing the profits of that with the farmers). Have that enterprise cut out the middle man, and start to work as an efficient value chain. (like the NZ model, only with the various producer cooperatives brought into a single organisation).

 

the snag is that the days of 30 acres providing a living for a farming family are over and this island isn't big enough to allow this. all the farmers working together does nothing to address the acres/land available per farmer ratio on the island. the farmers do indeed meet and talk and try and make the best of the system they have. the snag being the abatoir dictate what they will pay for the meat and then dictate what they will sell it at. the farmer doesn't offer his stock to the abatoir at price A and hope they give him what he wants. and this doesn't take into account for the farmer the severe increase in fuel cost now for his tractor and the shipping cost and delivery cost of animal feeds and also you don't see poor vets either. being the first proper link in the chain with only ONE buyer for your products does put you in a sticky spot. If tynwald wasn't traditionally full of farmers i'm sure they would have had the shit end of the stick years ago, some would say they have had it anyway. there are a few farmers and farms out there that rent their land to other farmers and have taken manual day jobs to get by or even improve their lot. this gives the farmer renting your farm more land at his disposal and a better chance of making a living. we should all emulate the good life, a few chickens and a pig in the back garden with an allotment full of veggies.