Should Tynwald Be Televised?

[pongo]

Let us be clear that the 'Charter' and the 'Framework Agreement' are two separate and differently purposed documents.

 

The BBC Charter does not set out any obligation that the BBC should broadcast Tynwald or any other Parliamentary like body.

 

Skeddan's interpretation of the Charter obligations are subjective.

 

I concede that there might be some argument for including some coverage of Tynwald on BBC Parliament even though almost nobody would watch it.

[Sebrof]

Incidentally, does the BBC charter really impose an obligation on the BBC to televise Parliament? And all parliamentary assemblies? If so, I couldn't see any reference to it.

This falls under the Public Purpose in the Charter (S.4(a) 'sustaining citizenship and civil society'), which is elaborated on in the Framework Agreement.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/framework/charter.html

 

{Detailed quotes omitted}

 

Thanks, that's pretty unambiguous.

 

S

[Sebrof]

Let us be clear that the 'Charter' and the 'Framework Agreement' are two separate and differently purposed documents.

 

The BBC Charter does not set out any obligation that the BBC should broadcast Tynwald or any other Parliamentary like body.

 

Skeddan's interpretation of the Charter obligations are subjective.

 

I concede that there might be some argument for including some coverage of Tynwald on BBC Parliament even though almost nobody would watch it.

 

Skeddan is perhaps right.

 

The Charter says, article 49 para 4: "The BBC must comply with any Framework Agreement..."

 

The Framework Agreement says, 6.2: "the Trust must have regard amongst other things to—

(a) the need to promote understanding of the UK political system (including Parliament

and the devolved structures), including through dedicated coverage of Parliamentary

matters, and the need for the purpose remit to require that the BBC transmits an

impartial account day by day of the proceedings in both Houses of Parliament;...."

 

The bit about promoting understanding applies to the IOM if we assume that Tynwald is a "devolved structure".

 

The bit about "transmits an impartial account" applies to "both Houses of Parliament" but not to devolved structures. Also, a "day by day account" is not a live broadcast.

 

However, 11 (h) says: "BBC Parliament: a channel providing substantial live coverage of debates and

committees of the UK’s Parliaments and Assemblies," which DOES (presumably) include Tynwald.

 

In my view, based on this, the BBC DOES have a duty to do live broadcasts of many Tynwald debates, provided that Tynwald is considered to be a "devolved structure".

 

S

[Skeddan]

Let us be clear that the 'Charter' and the 'Framework Agreement' are two separate and differently purposed documents.

 

The BBC Charter does not set out any obligation that the BBC should broadcast Tynwald or any other Parliamentary like body.

The Agreement complements the Charter. It goes into more detail on many of the subjects mentioned in the Charter and also covers such things as the BBC's regulatory obligations and funding arrangements.

 

Yes the Charter and the Framework Agreement are two separate documents.

 

However, just to clarify, the undertakings under the current Framework Agreement in force are ones the BBC are obliged to comply with under the Charter. See Section 49 of the Charter ('Framework Agreements'):

 

49. Framework Agreements

(1)A “Framework Agreement” is an agreement between the BBC and the Secretary of State which contains a statement to the effect that it is a Framework Agreement made for BBC Charter purposes.

 

(2)In anticipation of the grant of this Charter, the BBC has entered into a Framework Agreement with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport dated 30th June 2006. Further Framework Agreements may be made during the life of this Charter (and may amend or revoke the existing Framework Agreement).

 

(3)Framework Agreements may in principle impose obligations on the BBC in relation to particular topics which are addressed in this Charter, as well as in relation to topics which are not. A Framework Agreement may, for example, impose more detailed requirements. For example, article 24(2)(i) imposes a general requirement which is elaborated in clause 79 of the Agreement made on 30th June 2006. However, a Framework Agreement must be consistent with this Charter and, in the event of any contradiction, the terms of this Charter shall prevail. It is hereby declared that the content of the Framework Agreement as made on 30th June 2006 (mentioned in paragraph (2)) is fully compatible with the intentions of this Charter.

 

(4)The BBC must comply with any Framework Agreement, for so long as it is in force (see article 52).

 

Hence, the BBC's undertaking to televise the Isle of Man's parliament or assembly per the Framework Agreement is an obligation that the BBC must comply with under its Charter. The Charter itself does not explicitly set out this obligation that the BBC should provide Parliamentary coverage. I don't think I ever said that - rather it is an obligation under the Charter. You could say it is an obligation 'incorporated by reference' via the provisions of the Framework Agreement and which the Charter requires the BBC to comply with.

[Skeddan]

The Charter says, article 49 para 4: "The BBC must comply with any Framework Agreement..."

 

The Framework Agreement says, 6.2: "the Trust must have regard amongst other things to—

(a) the need to promote understanding of the UK political system (including Parliament

and the devolved structures), including through dedicated coverage of Parliamentary

matters, and the need for the purpose remit to require that the BBC transmits an

impartial account day by day of the proceedings in both Houses of Parliament;...."

 

The bit about promoting understanding applies to the IOM if we assume that Tynwald is a "devolved structure".

 

The bit about "transmits an impartial account" applies to "both Houses of Parliament" but not to devolved structures. Also, a "day by day account" is not a live broadcast.

 

However, 11 (h) says: "BBC Parliament: a channel providing substantial live coverage of debates and

committees of the UK’s Parliaments and Assemblies," which DOES (presumably) include Tynwald.

 

In my view, based on this, the BBC DOES have a duty to do live broadcasts of many Tynwald debates, provided that Tynwald is considered to be a "devolved structure".

 

Sebrof - 'promote understanding of the UK political system' = 'promote understanding of the political systems of the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.'

 

Then you have "(including Parliament and its devolved structures)"

 

now we could have a merry discussion about whether or not Tynwald is a devolved structure - but that is beside the point.

 

You are reading it assuming 'expressio unius est exclusio alterius' (The express mention of one thing excludes all others), and reading this so that if Tynwald is not a 'devolved structure', and not expressly mentioned along with 'Parliament and its devolved structures', then it is not covered and is excluded.

 

Note though that this mention of 'Parliament and its devolved structures' is illustrative not exclusionary - as indicated by the use of the word 'including'. Therefore this illustrative list shows that similar 'political systems' in the Isle of Man likewise should also have dedicated coverage. The same illustrative principle goes for the second 'including Tynwald is the analog of Parliament and these regional and national assemblies, hence it too should have same coverage by the BBC.

 

You also should take into account S.11 of the Framework Agreement as I mentioned earlier:

THE BBC’S UK PUBLIC SERVICES

11. List and description of the UK Public Services

(1) As at the date on which this Agreement is made, the BBC undertakes to provide the

following as UK Public Services.

...

(h) BBC Parliament: a channel providing substantial live coverage of debates and

committees of the UK’s Parliaments and Assemblies, and other political coverage;

 

And section 104 - interpretations

 

“the UK” is to be taken to mean, for these purposes only, the United Kingdom,

together with the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man;

 

11(h) thus pretty clearly shows that the BBC is obliged to give substantial live coverage of debates and committees of the Isle of Man's 'Parliament/Assembly', and other Manx political coverage on the 'BBC Parliament' channel. (also available via iPlayer).

 

It's all a bit picky I know, and easy to miss given IoM is not part of the UK, particularly given the way these documents are written with IoM included in the 'UK' as far as these documents are concerned.

 

Anyway, to cut through all this nitty gritty, as I said originally:

 

Of course Tynwald should be televised, just like House of Commons, House of Lords, Welsh Assembly, and Scottish Parliament.

 

It's the BBC's job to be doing this. They have an obligation to do so under their Charter. The BBC should be doing what they're meant to and Manx taxpayers shouldn't have to pay any more for this than the TV tax / licence fee already being paid.

[Lost Login]

I would point anybody who is interested at the House of Parliament fact sheets on the subject and whilst Parliament is filed the only BBC requirement per its charter etc appears to be "The BBC is required by its license and agreements to “broadcast an impartial account day by day, prepared by professional reporters, of the proceedings of both houses of Parliament”

 

There is no obligation to film although the major TV stations choose to fund a company to do so.

 

I could not see how it could have been the BBC "responsibility" as I can remember them bringing in TV and radio recording into the Houses of Parliament and the Lords. It was then and I presume still is now Parliaments decision if it is filmed. I can not therefore see how it can be the BBC's responsibility if they have no actual right. I also remember the recent arguments about the daily summary on the BBC about the day in Parliament from which it would appear that there is little cast in stone what is required to be covered.

 

If there is no obligation for the BBC to film the UK parliament, I can not see how we can really argue they have an obligation to film the IoMs

[Skeddan]

I can not see how it can be the BBC "responsibility" as I can remember them bringing in TV into the Houses of Parliament and then the Lords. It was then and I presume still is now Parliaments decision if it is filmed. I can not therefore see how it can be the BBC's responsibility if they have no actual right. I also remember the recent arguments about the daily summary on the BBC about the day in Westminster from which it would appear that there is little cast in stone what is required to be covered.

 

Finally with regard to the Houses of Parliament, Lords, Welsh and Scottish Assemblies etc does anybody know who actually pay thecosts of the coverage. I have always presumed it was the entity itself

Lost Login - these are fair points you raise. If you look, what I said is that the BBC have an obligation to be televising Tynwald under their Charter. I think the initial tv coverage was piloting coverage in the 80's and became regular in 1990. The Framework Agreement came into force in 2006. Prior to this being made a specific requirement (I believe in 2006), the BBC were under no such obligation. Hence introduction in the 1980s-1990s was somewhat different.

 

You say BBC has no actual right to do this. Hmmm. Not sure. UK responsible for good governance, this is per royal charter and exercise of royal prerogative over IoM. I don't know Tynwald could actually say 'non'. Off hand I think they might have already said 'yes' by passing the Broadcasting Act (whatever it was called) which introduced the BBC licence fee and a lot else besides (which was passed without most MHKs even knowing what it covered or contained). Still it would be interesting if Tynwald did try to block this. You'd have to wonder why. Frankly if push came to shove, I doubt they'd challenge this exercise of royal prerogative as approved by Parliament. Kilbrandon would argue they'd be powerless anyway. Still it's interesting point you raise, though I imagine it would only be hypothetical.

 

Probably there is little cast in stone about what is required to be covered. It should be substantial coverage, and certainly enough to be meaningful coverage of political system.

 

I'm pretty sure UK Parliament paid for coverage initially. However with the 2006 Framework Agreement I'd think the obligation of the BBC means it would have to pay for it. They undertake to deliver it. There is no stipulation that this is subject to the assembly approving and paying for it. I don't think they could claim that they do not have to comply with this because Tynwald haven't provided the funds to pay for the costs of coverage. They are obliged to do this and so should do it - that is their undertaking. Tywnald are under no obligation to pay for the BBC to carry out this Charter requirement. It's entirely up to the BBC to make it happen. (Unless Tynwald try to stop it - in which case telephones will start ringing in the CSO and Whitehall).

[Skeddan]

I would point anybody who is interested at the House of Parliament fact sheets on the subject and whilst Parliament is filed the only BBC requirement per its charter etc appears to be "The BBC is required by its license and agreements to “broadcast an impartial account day by day, prepared by professional reporters, of the proceedings of both houses of Parliament”

 

There is no obligation to film although the major TV stations choose to fund a company to do so.

 

If there is no obligation for the BBC to film the UK parliament, I can not see how we can really argue they have an obligation to film the IoMs

To respond to what you added here after editing...

 

Whether or not the BBC have an obligation to televise Parliament does not come down to what is said in a Parliament fact sheet. The BBC Charter (incorporating any Framework Agreement currently in force) is the relevant legislative instrument. The 'fact sheet' is of no legislative authority, and even your reading of it as a conclusive statement of the full extent of the BBC's obligations in that regard is somewhat dubious. Go by the relevant legislation rather than 'secondary sources'.

 

If you look back at my earlier post I set out fairly clearly the relevant parts of the Charter and Framework Agreement which sets out this obligation.

 

Lost Login - would you mind giving a link to this 'House of Parliament' (!) fact sheet - it would help if being pointed to it. Thanks.

[Sebrof]

The Charter says, article 49 para 4: "The BBC must comply with any Framework Agreement..."

 

The Framework Agreement says, 6.2: "the Trust must have regard amongst other things to—

(a) the need to promote understanding of the UK political system (including Parliament

and the devolved structures), including through dedicated coverage of Parliamentary

matters, and the need for the purpose remit to require that the BBC transmits an

impartial account day by day of the proceedings in both Houses of Parliament;...."

 

The bit about promoting understanding applies to the IOM if we assume that Tynwald is a "devolved structure".

 

The bit about "transmits an impartial account" applies to "both Houses of Parliament" but not to devolved structures. Also, a "day by day account" is not a live broadcast.

 

However, 11 (h) says: "BBC Parliament: a channel providing substantial live coverage of debates and

committees of the UK’s Parliaments and Assemblies," which DOES (presumably) include Tynwald.

 

In my view, based on this, the BBC DOES have a duty to do live broadcasts of many Tynwald debates, provided that Tynwald is considered to be a "devolved structure".

 

Sebrof - 'promote understanding of the UK political system' = 'promote understanding of the political systems of the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.'

 

Then you have "(including Parliament and its devolved structures)"

 

now we could have a merry discussion about whether or not Tynwald is a devolved structure - but that is beside the point.

 

You are reading it assuming 'expressio unius est exclusio alterius' (The express mention of one thing excludes all others), and reading this so that if Tynwald is not a 'devolved structure', and not expressly mentioned along with 'Parliament and its devolved structures', then it is not covered and is excluded.

 

Note though that this mention of 'Parliament and its devolved structures' is illustrative not exclusionary - as indicated by the use of the word 'including'. Therefore this illustrative list shows that similar 'political systems' in the Isle of Man likewise should also have dedicated coverage. The same illustrative principle goes for the second 'including Tynwald is the analog of Parliament and these regional and national assemblies, hence it too should have same coverage by the BBC.

 

You also should take into account S.11 of the Framework Agreement as I mentioned earlier:

THE BBC’S UK PUBLIC SERVICES

11. List and description of the UK Public Services

(1) As at the date on which this Agreement is made, the BBC undertakes to provide the

following as UK Public Services.

...

(h) BBC Parliament: a channel providing substantial live coverage of debates and

committees of the UK’s Parliaments and Assemblies, and other political coverage;

 

And section 104 - interpretations

 

“the UK” is to be taken to mean, for these purposes only, the United Kingdom,

together with the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man;

 

11(h) thus pretty clearly shows that the BBC is obliged to give substantial live coverage of debates and committees of the Isle of Man's 'Parliament/Assembly', and other Manx political coverage on the 'BBC Parliament' channel. (also available via iPlayer).

 

It's all a bit picky I know, and easy to miss given IoM is not part of the UK, particularly given the way these documents are written with IoM included in the 'UK' as far as these documents are concerned.

 

Anyway, to cut through all this nitty gritty, as I said originally:

 

Of course Tynwald should be televised, just like House of Commons, House of Lords, Welsh Assembly, and Scottish Parliament.

 

It's the BBC's job to be doing this. They have an obligation to do so under their Charter. The BBC should be doing what they're meant to and Manx taxpayers shouldn't have to pay any more for this than the TV tax / licence fee already being paid.

 

Skeddan, let's take this one point at a time.

 

11(h) is the only bit which obliges the Beeb to provide live coverage. True or false?

 

If true, then what does it have to provide live coverage of?

 

Answer: "UK’s Parliaments and Assemblies"

 

What is an assembly? Is it another name for a "devolved structure"? Perhaps, and perhaps not.

 

If yes, is Tynwald a devolved structure? Quite possibly not; it wasn't a product of devolution, it was always seperate.

 

If no, then what is an assembly? It isn't a parliament, or there would be no need to use the word.

 

I think there is a lack of clarity here, and although I woud like to believe that your assumption is correct, I think there is room for doubt.

 

S

[Gladys]

You need to check the definition of Parliament (with a capital 'P' and so a defined term).

 

The IOM is patently not a devolved assembly. If it is, its powers were 'devolved' before the phrase had common currency.

[Skeddan]

Skeddan, let's take this one point at a time.

 

11(h) is the only bit which obliges the Beeb to provide live coverage. True or false?

11(h) stipulates live coverage on the BBC Parliament television channel. Specifically -

the BBC should provide 'substantial live coverage of debates and committees of [the Isle of Man's legislative assemblies] and other political coverage;

 

This would include the House of Keys (lower house) and the Legislative Council (upper house). Also Tynwald Day (full house).

 

However live coverage is not the only thing.

 

See 6.2. which provides as illustration of the BBCs requirement of political coverage that the BBC should provide dedicated coverage of Parliamentary matters, and the need for the purpose remit to require that the BBC transmits an impartial account day by day of the proceedings in both Houses of Parliament;..

 

Given that illustration, then likewise BBC should provide dedicated coverage of Tynwald matters and transmit and impartial account day by day of proceedings in House of Keys and LegCo, and committees etc.

 

If true, then what does it have to provide live coverage of?

 

Answer: "UK’s Parliaments and Assemblies"

 

UK's Parliaments and Assemblies = the Parliaments and Assemblies of the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.

 

What is an assembly? Is it another name for a "devolved structure"? Perhaps, and perhaps not.

I think the context and meaning is quite clear - it is the legislative body. Is Tynwald the legislative body for the Isle of Man. Perhaps, and perhaps not. But supposing it at least nominally rubber stamps, and we assume it is a legislative body for IoM, then the BBC are obliged to provide substantial live coverage. etc.

 

If yes, is Tynwald a devolved structure? Quite possibly not; it wasn't a product of devolution, it was always seperate.

 

If no, then what is an assembly? It isn't a parliament, or there would be no need to use the word.

 

I think there is a lack of clarity here, and although I woud like to believe that your assumption is correct, I think there is room for doubt.

 

Sebrof - 'Parliament' refers to Westminster. Assembly is in ordinary sense of 'legislative body'. Assembly is not another name for 'devolved structure', nor is this illustrative wording exclusionary anyway.

 

The requirement is not limited solely to Parliament and the devolved structures. It is to political systems in the United Kingdom and the Isle of Man including [but not limited to] Parliament and the devolved structures.

 

That is how 'including' should be read in legislative instruments such as this.

 

It might be argued that Tynwald's powers are devolved - 'tenants at will of their constitutional priviledges'—Statement by HM Treasury, 1925 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_Isle_of_Man and so on and so forth. But no need.

 

It is clear that the various legislative assemblies in United Kingdom, Channel Islands and the Isle of Man should have coverage - both substantial live television coverage on BBC Parliament per 11(h) and also political coverage in other media - radio, internet as well as televison under 6.2 - political reports, and broadcasts of proceedings etc.

 

I think you'd have to bend so far backwards to read the Framework Agreement so as to mean that BBC under no obligation to provide any coverage of Tynwald that you'd be disappearing up your own backside.

 

Incredibly that seems to be the direction most people seem to want to fight tooth and nail to go. Why the aversion and hostility to the idea that the BBC might have this obligation? Is it some manic compulsive self-effacing syndrome?

[Albert Tatlock]

Who the heck wants to watch the Peter Karran and Bill Henderson et al Muppet show?

 

They'll end up playing to the cameras. Broadcast it yes, but leave it for the radio IMO.

[Gladys]

Skeddan

 

Put the argument another way, can the BBC insist in installing cameras in Tynwald for broadcasting?

[Skeddan]

Who the heck wants to watch the Peter Karran and Bill Henderson et al Muppet show?

 

They'll end up playing to the cameras. Broadcast it yes, but leave it for the radio IMO.

Not knocking your opinion AT, but it isn't really a matter of choice to be decided by consultation etc. The BBC have an obligation to provide live television coverage on BBC Parliament. I don't think the Queen is going to ask the BBC to surrender their Charter so this can be re-issued with the changes you suggest.

 

Never mind - choice extracts of the Muppet show at election time might mean you wont be seeing those Muppets again.

[Sebrof]

Skeddan, let's take this one point at a time.

 

11(h) is the only bit which obliges the Beeb to provide live coverage. True or false?

11(h) stipulates live coverage on the BBC Parliament television channel. Specifically -

the BBC should provide 'substantial live coverage of debates and committees of [the Isle of Man's legislative assemblies] and other political coverage;

 

This would include the House of Keys (lower house) and the Legislative Council (upper house). Also Tynwald Day (full house).

 

However live coverage is not the only thing.

 

See 6.2. which provides as illustration of the BBCs requirement of political coverage that the BBC should provide dedicated coverage of Parliamentary matters, and the need for the purpose remit to require that the BBC transmits an impartial account day by day of the proceedings in both Houses of Parliament;..

 

Given that illustration, then likewise BBC should provide dedicated coverage of Tynwald matters and transmit and impartial account day by day of proceedings in House of Keys and LegCo, and committees etc.

 

If true, then what does it have to provide live coverage of?

 

Answer: "UK’s Parliaments and Assemblies"

 

UK's Parliaments and Assemblies = the Parliaments and Assemblies of the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.

 

What is an assembly? Is it another name for a "devolved structure"? Perhaps, and perhaps not.

I think the context and meaning is quite clear - it is the legislative body. Is Tynwald the legislative body for the Isle of Man. Perhaps, and perhaps not. But supposing it at least nominally rubber stamps, and we assume it is a legislative body for IoM, then the BBC are obliged to provide substantial live coverage. etc.

 

If yes, is Tynwald a devolved structure? Quite possibly not; it wasn't a product of devolution, it was always seperate.

 

If no, then what is an assembly? It isn't a parliament, or there would be no need to use the word.

 

I think there is a lack of clarity here, and although I woud like to believe that your assumption is correct, I think there is room for doubt.

 

Sebrof - 'Parliament' refers to Westminster.

 

Er, no. The wording says "parliaments", plural.

 

Assembly is in ordinary sense of 'legislative body'. Assembly is not another name for 'devolved structure', nor is this illustrative wording exclusionary anyway.

 

The requirement is not limited solely to Parliament and the devolved structures. It is to political systems in the United Kingdom and the Isle of Man including [but not limited to] Parliament and the devolved structures.

 

That is how 'including' should be read in legislative instruments such as this.

 

It might be argued that Tynwald's powers are devolved - 'tenants at will of their constitutional priviledges'—Statement by HM Treasury, 1925 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_Isle_of_Man and so on and so forth. But no need.

 

It is clear that the various legislative assemblies in United Kingdom, Channel Islands and the Isle of Man should have coverage - both substantial live television coverage on BBC Parliament per 11(h) and also political coverage in other media - radio, internet as well as televison under 6.2 - political reports, and broadcasts of proceedings etc.

 

I think you'd have to bend so far backwards to read the Framework Agreement so as to mean that BBC under no obligation to provide any coverage of Tynwald that you'd be disappearing up your own backside.

 

Very colourful, Skeddan. I do actually lean to your interpretation.

 

Incredibly that seems to be the direction most people seem to want to fight tooth and nail to go. Why the aversion and hostility to the idea that the BBC might have this obligation? Is it some manic compulsive self-effacing syndrome?

 

Agreed.

 

S