Topaz Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Is this any help? http://www.fme.is/lisalib/getfile.aspx?itemid=5725 Oh and while I think of it, the UK has form for abandoning the Crown Dependencies.On June 15th 1940 The Channel Islands were taken over by the Nazis while the UK looked the other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Before approaching the EU, the IOM would have to be a sovereign state The UK of GB & NI is gradually drifting apart IMO. Scotland and Wales are already semi autonomous. Scotland is likely to go for full independence sooner or later. Irish reunification is an inevitability. Is a semi autonomous IOM already so much different from a semi autonomous Scotland? I don't see any reason why the IOM could not be part of the EU - or, for that matter, part of a loser affiliation of the islands. I would like the IOM to be properly part of the EU. I also believe that the call for EU membership would unite a significant majority of politically very different groups on the IOM - including, probably, some nationalists and many in the business community (who are currently often excluded from bidding / applying for EU contracts and funding). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 part of a looser affiliation of the islands. critically corrected for spelling! Totally agree with what you are saying though, with one proviso - I love the idea of a Federal Republic of the Isles - the combined history, culture, and sporting prowess of Mannin together with The Western Isles (+ maybe the Inner Hebrides) Orkney, Shetland, the Faroes, & The Channel Islands - all of us sharing similar heritage, aspirations and circumstance would really be some country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Isn't our constitutional position as a dependency much more to do with the Queen than the government of the day? Shouldn't TB be meeting the Queen and/or some of her representatives too, put their grievance in her hands, and ask her to put her boots on and go round and kick Alistair Darling up the backside - and inform him that: 'constitutionally we are all on the same team'? As Moghrey Mie mentioned, there is a need for a study of many aspects of our relationship with the UK. Without it, this rush of posts suggesting we become 'a micro-state of the EU' is a bit premature IMO, as it we could very easily end up swapping one set of problems for another major set of problems, including opening ourselves up to unlimited immigration - which is already destroying many of the cultural aspects of the island we would all seek to support. Already immigration from the UK would likely drive the direction of a referendum on this, and along with other factors, I suspect an overwhelming 'No' vote to joining the EU would be the probable result. In that sense, much further study is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Is joining the EU a real option? Why would they let us in or want us in? Even Luxembourg has a bigger land mass and a population 5 times ours. If we want to join the EU this would probably have to be a relationship through the UK in some form. My vote is for taking action now to sort out the adverse publicity we are getting in both the UK and USA. When you start getting mentioned in the US Senate as an uncooperative tax haven its time to correct the situation pdq or the rules will be written for us without any say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Before approaching the EU, the IOM would have to be a sovereign state I don't see any reason why the IOM could not be part of the EU - or, for that matter, part of a loser affiliation of the islands. I would like the IOM to be properly part of the EU. I also believe that the call for EU membership would unite a significant majority of politically very different groups on the IOM - including, probably, some nationalists and many in the business community (who are currently often excluded from bidding / applying for EU contracts and funding). The problem with joining the EU is that we are just about the most prosperous country in Europe. We would be a net CONTRIBUTOR to the other nations. No fancy road schemes and facilities bankrolled by Europe for us like they had in Ireland and other countries. We would become worse off, putting money into the pot for the new emerging, less prosperous European nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 opening ourselves up to unlimited immigration - which is already destroying many of the cultural aspects 1. Nothing cultural has ever been lost anywhere as a result of immigration. Cultures either stagnate and die or else they evolve. The evolution of cultures is invariably linked to the free movement of people, capital and ideas. Free trade and the free movement of people are indivisible. 2. In difficult times we will probably care far more about the rights of our people to work in the EU. Rather than worrying about them coming here. The problem with joining the EU is that we are just about the most prosperous country in Europe. We would be a net CONTRIBUTOR to the other nations. 3. At the moment we are relatively prosperous although the figures are subjective. That could also change more or less over night. Membership of the EU would be about us thinking about moving towards a sustainable economy - rather than one which is overly dependent on a finance sector which will inevitably decline. 4. IOM companies are currently excluded, in many cases, from plying for contracts, development grants etc within the EU. This would have the potential to restrict us from developing a more sustainable economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 opening ourselves up to unlimited immigration - which is already destroying many of the cultural aspects 1. Nothing cultural has ever been lost anywhere as a result of immigration. Cultures either stagnate and die or else they evolve. The evolution of cultures is invariably linked to the free movement of people, capital and ideas. Free trade and the free movement of people are indivisible. 2. In difficult times we will probably care far more about the rights of our people to work in the EU. Rather than worrying about them coming here. The problem with joining the EU is that we are just about the most prosperous country in Europe. We would be a net CONTRIBUTOR to the other nations. 3. At the moment we are relatively prosperous although the figures are subjective. That could also change more or less over night. Membership of the EU would be about us thinking about moving towards a sustainable economy - rather than one which is overly dependent on a finance sector which will inevitably decline. 4. IOM companies are currently excluded, in many cases, from plying for contracts, development grants etc within the EU. This would have the potential to restrict us from developing a more sustainable economy. Completely agree - but I'd prefer to my elected representative to be commuting to Douglas (where we can keep an eye on him/her) than living in Brussels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeddan Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Is joining the EU a real option? Not as far as I can see. People tend to jump to discussing this as if it were a possibility without even considering whether or not it might actually be an option. It's all very well to be discussing the pros and cons of EU membership, but it's just building castles in the air. I'd also go so far as to suggest that the UK is constitutionally and legally incapable of granting IoM independence, and the exact nature of the constitutional relationship is one which the UK will continue to keep a tight lid on. Alistair Darling was not suggesting that the constitutional relationship would be up for examination or review; had he been so unwise as to do this, he would have been told to pull his head in. I'm sure if Tony Brown has any doubts over this, it will soon be put to rest. As far as considering EU membership is concerned, one may as well debate the pros and cons of towing the Island to the South Pacific where it could enjoy a warmer climate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I'd prefer to my elected representative to be commuting to Douglas (where we can keep an eye on him/her) than living in Brussels. How about if you had a local representative on the IOM but were also directly represented at EU level - rather than via Her Mag and an obscure protocol ? The gravitational pull of the EU is very strong and we are very much affected by what is decided there - therefore IMO our democratic representation would be bettered by our proper membership - and by us being directly represented. I also believe that we can better ourselves via full membership. All this talk of things not being possible is for the birds IMO. Others here, including eg John Wright have previously eloquently made the point that anything is ultimately negotiable. PS - all that said, I have no doubt a plebiscite on the IOM (or even a poll of the IOM Newspapers site) would overwhelming reject EU membership right now. This would be the unfortunate result of decades of hysterical nonsense in the British press. Until we are staring into the void, there will be inadquate popular support for my pov. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeddan Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 All this talk of things not being possible is for the birds IMO. Others here, including eg John Wright have previously eloquently made the point that anything is ultimately negotiable. Others inc. e.g. John Wright have simply asserted IoM would be eligible if it was a sovereign state , and assumed that IoM could attain status as a sovereign state if it chose. There's a landlord and tenant. The tenant thinks to himself 'I can get the freehold of this house whenever I want'. Skeddan says better check on your legal position and not make hasty assumptions - and from circumstances that doesn't seem to be so. Pongo, John Wright et al say no need to worry - Skeddan is 'overcomplicating it' by saying need to look into this - we can just cut corners and 'no doubt' this will be ok - let's just dismiss all the 'complications' out of hand - so much easier! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Is a semi autonomous IOM already so much different from a semi autonomous Scotland? Totally. Scotland has limited autonomy within a state (the UK) which is part of the EU. The IOM is not part of that EU member state, nor any other. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Is a semi autonomous IOM already so much different from a semi autonomous Scotland? Scotland has limited autonomy within a state (the UK) which is part of the EU. The IOM is not part of that EU member state, nor any other. Different versions of semi autonomous. And the IOM, via the obscure protocol is already not completely detached from the EU - affected but not directly represented and therefore not enjoying the full benefits. So different but also essentially not dissimilar. Equally but differently semi autonomous. But not so different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 My arse. Culture can be 'democratic' or 'colonial' too. Just look at what happened to the red indians, indians, and the celts etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxy Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 What does 'our' King Howe say about all of this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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