Newsbot Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Four serving Manx soldiers have taken part in a Remembrance Day service in the Isle of Man. Source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/england/7718471.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 I wonder what they make of this with it's quite excellent timing? Tatchell had a right go at me on this issue when I told him there was no place in the teeth regiments for homosexuals. RAF technician or whatever then maybe. Otherwise no. Peter Tatchell, of rights group OutRage!, said: "Although this monetary compensation package is welcome and long overdue, what's really important is the official recognition that a grave injustice was done to these people, and to hundreds of other dismissed lesbian and gay soldiers, sailors and air crews." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 I wonder what they make of this with it's quite excellent timing? Tatchell had a right go at me on this issue when I told him there was no place in the teeth regiments for homosexuals. RAF technician or whatever then maybe. Otherwise no. Ok that is your stance on the matter, but you have not explained why. Peter Tatchell, of rights group OutRage!, said: "Although this monetary compensation package is welcome and long overdue, what's really important is the official recognition that a grave injustice was done to these people, and to hundreds of other dismissed lesbian and gay soldiers, sailors and air crews." What exactly do you wish to discuss about this? Do you object to the fact that these people lost their jobs because of their sexuality and are given compensation? What I do think is that it is a rather state of affairs are the celebrations at Gay Pride and happiness that many gays express that gay people can join the military. Given my politics and ways of viewing the world I can think of few occupations as disdainful as that of the soldier who volunteers his services to the state for the process of killing. And though I am glad discrimination in the services is gone, it is a disappointing state of affairs to see those who could not join jump at the chance today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moghrey Mie Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Four serving Manx soldiers have taken part in a Remembrance Day service in the Isle of Man. Source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/england/7718471.stm Why are remembrance services religious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Why are remembrance services religious? This might help. Millions of German soldiers died in both World Wars with "Gott Mit Uns" inscribed on their belt buckles. The clue is in the name... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Wars almost always involve death and where there is death there are those that hope for another life. Though I wonder to what extent the belief in God and Heaven mitigates the impact of death and killing in the minds of people and made people less afraid of death in earlier wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celt Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 If you don't agree with wars, armies, soldiers or anything to do with the violent conflicts we see and have seen , then maybe use to time and the day to reflect on the innocent who get killed in conflicts, the families of the killed, the ones left behind to suffer and pray that the powerful and greedy stop cuasing them and then we can all live in Peace. I know i said a prayer for them yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I was at an under-13s soccer match when the silence was called for. All of the players and all of the spectators stood in perfect silence with their heads bowed - there wasn't a single movement or sound. Afterwards, I asked my lad what he thought of it and what he thought it was about. His reply was to the effect that it was to show respect for all those who had died in wars, regardless of nationality or of whether they had volunteered, or been forced, to fight and die. Because he's been learning about the First World war, he said that he'd actually been thinking about that during the silence. A Mars bar and a bottle of pop on the way home - well deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 My daughters' school took them on a battlefield tour, including the Menin gate at Ypres, so that they could fully appreciate the sacrifices made. One of the few times I didn't mind forking out the dosh for. But I do not know if this is a standard curricular thing or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I wonder what they make of this with it's quite excellent timing? Tatchell had a right go at me on this issue when I told him there was no place in the teeth regiments for homosexuals. RAF technician or whatever then maybe. Otherwise no. With Afghanistan being so dangerous though, you have to admire those willing to take one in the Khyber Pass for Queen and Country On a more serious note I do find this compensation offensive. There are far more deserving soldiers, sailors and airmen who need money and help, who all followed the terms and conditions of their contracts, and Queens Regulations - and many who gave much more. The rules at the time of joining were clear, so this fight should have been held outside of the forces, not within it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 If you don't agree with wars, armies, soldiers or anything to do with the violent conflicts we see and have seen , then maybe use to time and the day to reflect on the innocent who get killed in conflicts, the families of the killed, the ones left behind to suffer and pray that the powerful and greedy stop cuasing them and then we can all live in Peace. I know i said a prayer for them yesterday. You don't have to just think about the families. All the men who were and are conscripted were innocents sent to die. Certainly when you think of WW1, they didn't need to die. There should not have even been a war. you have to admire those willing to take one in the Khyber Pass for Queen and Country I can admire their bravery, but can only feel a sense of great disappointment when they fight for Queen and Country. It isn't their fault they have been indoctrinated with such abhorrent ideas, but they are still abhorrent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I can admire their bravery, but can only feel a sense of great disappointment when they fight for Queen and Country. It isn't their fault they have been indoctrinated with such abhorrent ideas, but they are still abhorrent. It's their fault they signed up. Anyway, you're not "indoctrinated with such abhorrent ideas", you're trained to do a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 On a more serious note I do find this compensation offensive. There are far more deserving soldiers, sailors and airmen who need money and help, who all followed the terms and conditions of their contracts, and Queens Regulations - and many who gave much more. The rules at the time of joining were clear, so this fight should have been held outside of the forces, not within it. What soldiers are more deserving of this compensation? Just want to know your opinion, out of interest. From my perspective, it is difficult to judge how MUCH compensation is right and what form it should take, but I do think that compensation is very much deserved. If you believe that discrimination is wrong then the rules regarding entry to the armed forces should not have been there in the first place. By justifying a point of view that these people should not have received compensation seems to me to show a recognition and respect of such rules, even though the state is clearly in the wrong by discriminating against such people. What is even more objectionable to their dismissals is the fact that they participated in the armed forces, doing whatever tasks they were required to until their sexual orientation was uncovered. So it is not that their performance was an issue, and their performance is what should have mattered. That RAF guy who was fired was in the job I think for over ten years. His abilities were not in question, and it was not until one of his superiors heard rumours of his sexuality that the superior officer felt he HAD to follow the rules, apparently reluctantly, and dismissed him. To me that just seems very wrong. The fact is that these people lost their jobs over something that should not enter into decisions of dismissal. But I would agree that there are a lot of people in the armed forces who deserve help. The aid given by the state to those differing from conflict related illnesses is utterly appalling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I can admire their bravery, but can only feel a sense of great disappointment when they fight for Queen and Country. It isn't their fault they have been indoctrinated with such abhorrent ideas, but they are still abhorrent. It's their fault they signed up. Anyway, you're not "indoctrinated with such abhorrent ideas", you're trained to do a job. I am only referring to what I believed Albert Tatlock was saying in that these soldiers are WILLING to fight for Queen and Country. I am only saying that ideas of fighting for one's country are not good because those who have them are deluded if they think they might be fighting for their people and are fighting for some artificial concept of nation. Though I do remember you saying that it is few people who join the forces because of their wish to fight for their country. Surely 'fighting for ones country' must form part of their motivation. P.K., were you not in the forces? Why, mainly, do people join? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Though I do remember you saying that it is few people who join the forces because of their wish to fight for their country. Surely 'fighting for ones country' must form part of their motivation. P.K., were you not in the forces? Why, mainly, do people join? I can only speak for myself which is also some time ago! I joined up because I wanted to get away and the thought of further education just left me cold. At the time it was generally thought that people joined up because they couldn't get a "proper" job. That was true in some cases and after BT the queue for HGV training was a mile long. But that kind of person wanted the easiest possible life as well. An easy life didn't interest me at all, hitting a target at 800 metres with a 7.62 floating barrel Lee Enfield (I'm not kidding, my rifle was a LOT older than me!) was the reason I was there. And I thought there was no point in being there unless you wanted to soldier. But no-one joined up to fight for "Queen and Country" or any other high ideals at all. When the shit was flying you went for it for yourself and your mates. That's all. Edited to add that yesterday really showed up that my foot-drill is getting very rusty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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