Albert Tatlock Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 I think some people here are confusing the abuse and misuse of British forces by Bush and Blair/Broon, with the 'covenant'. The two issues are quite separate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyboarder Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Manx Knobs for hearts and minds, lol,lol......... ; )) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebees Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 very droll Keyboarder I do not like wars or fighting but, all of the soldiers (past and present) have my full respect. I think about it like this, 'Your job is to serve and protect and you risk your life everyday when you goto work' thats not like driving to work and making a few phone calls, its very serious. Not something I fully understand and I'm quite glad not to. We are really very lucky to live in relatively peaceful times, well, it is peaceful in our country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holy Paladin Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 keyboarder , sometimes i am amazed, sometimes i just laugh at people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 When you are out there doing the job you are not interested in any of the politics or if its right to be there or not, you are interested in keeping your mates alive. But this is the issue though because warfare is nothing but a political act. So soldiers are carrying out politics. And most of the time British foreign policy has involved simply satisfying the British and International elites requirements. Soldiers who fight may be aware of this and are therefore an extremely obedient 'task force' of the government or they are utterly ignorant of what they are doing. I dont think soldiers will ever be fully respected by people who have never seen the front line or felt the dread of war, people have opinions which is fine but i get offended when some folk who can sleep safe at night fail to recognise the reason they can do that is because of the men and women who gave their lives to protect their country. It is the same kind of people who are in our armed forces today and regardless of the reasons or politics, they would die protecting the very people who do not respect them. Why would someone learn to respect soldiers by going to the front line or having felt the dread of war? Now I can recognise these soldiers bravery, they are braver than me by far. I don't need to go to the battlefront to see that. But respect is something quite different. I can no reason why respect is earned for joining the forces or even fighting as a soldier on the front. Being brave does not lead to respect, no more than an very intelligent person should necessarily be respected. I say that because the task of the soldier are driven by politics, and those politics are not purely motivated and are rarely even mainly motivated by the need to protect the people living in a country. Warfare is driven by the demands of a small minority of people at the top in this country and nowadays driven by the interests of the collective grouping elites from many different countries. Far more often than not the soldiers tasks are unsavoury because it is needless and involves unnecessary deaths. I cannot respect them for any sense of altruism because I do not believe it exists. The man who would is or would become a soldier is no more altruistic than anyone else. However, once he has entered into the forces the is a likelihood of him dying in combat. But this is not altruism. Take the soldier out of the military and that apparent altruism will surely disappear. But whether the soldier believes it or not, he is not really dying for the British people. If he believes that he is deluded. British foreign policy is simply not driven mainly by the sole need for protecting the British people. The military does involve itself in the protection of the country from foreign threats, i.e. threats driven by the motivations of elites in other countries (terrorism is an exception) but where the protection of the citizen is involved it is merely a necesary function that the government must perform for it to exist. We are given the impression that there is a vital need for this protection and only the military can perform it. I, however, believe that government as it is constituted today whether it be liberal or totalitiarian is the problem. It is the system of nation states led by small elites who control the resources in the world who are people who make me feel unsafe when I go to bed. But the soldiers in Britain are simply our side of this arena. If my safety is assured by the British military, a belief that I do not share, then I think it needs to be demonstrated how this is the case. I cannot think for a moment how it is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortalpuppet Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 The people who gave their lives in past wars and will again in future wars are the reason you sleep safe at night. I take my hat off to each and every person who is willing to die so that people like you can have the luxury of an opinion. And the fact they have the balls to sign up knowing they have a good chance of being killed for a greater cause makes them alot braver than people give them credit for. If you ask the people you work with if they would jump on a grenade or push you out of the way to take an incoming round then i imagine a few of them would say yes, but if it came to the test they would shit out like most people would. If you cant see that fact or dont agree then i am glad i dont share the same ideals. A soldier has piss all to do with politics, they get told where to fight and they get on with it as best they can, they had the chance to stay near loved ones and get a normal job but they choose to fight away from comforts and loved ones knowing that one day they might just have to give their lives for the sake of a profession. If you dont respect the job they are doing or where they are doing it then take it out on the people in power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 The people who gave their lives in past wars and will again in future wars are the reason you sleep safe at night. I take my hat off to each and every person who is willing to die so that people like you can have the luxury of an opinion. Just for the sake of examining this idea further, I cannot think of wars that have led me to be safe at night. The Gulf War, Kosovo, Bosnia, Falklands, Malaya, Suez, Palestine, World War 2, World War I, Boer War, numerous 'small wars' in the colonies, and the Crimea, etc., are a list of just some of the major wars that Britain has fought. Of these I do not see how any other than World War 2 might have led to a situation where I sleep safe at night. But if this can be demonstrated or explained then I am willing to understand. I tend to look at things from the other perspective and to see the way the world is with it being comprised of nation states, each with their own military as a reflection of what is wrong with things today, it is what makes the world unsafe. (As an aside one should not talk about the luxury of an opinion, such an idea gives the impression that your free expression is a privilege, but such a thing is a necessity as the free being you ought to be.) And the fact they have the balls to sign up knowing they have a good chance of being killed for a greater cause makes them alot braver than people give them credit for. If you ask the people you work with if they would jump on a grenade or push you out of the way to take an incoming round then i imagine a few of them would say yes, but if it came to the test they would shit out like most people would. But what is this greater cause? This is what I was asking P.K. about earlier because I asked whether people genuinely join the forces to fight for their country, and the impression I got was that it was just another job. I would agree that someone who enters into a career where the chances of dying are far greater and where you would put yourself in danger makes someone very brave indeed! I just don't agree that this should equate with respect and I will further explain why below. If you cant see that fact or dont agree then i am glad i dont share the same ideals. A soldier has piss all to do with politics, they get told where to fight and they get on with it as best they can, they had the chance to stay near loved ones and get a normal job but they choose to fight away from comforts and loved ones knowing that one day they might just have to give their lives for the sake of a profession. If you dont respect the job they are doing or where they are doing it then take it out on the people in power. This is what I find bizarre though. Soldiers are not political but the field of work they are part of is nothing but political. The places they are sent, the grand strategy, the length of time they are somewhere, who their enemy is, who their allies will be are all to do with politics. If the soldier is not political then he can be ordered to justly fight off an invading army that will wish to install a more repressive regime in Britain for example, but he could also be sent to another country to invade them and do the same. He could help civilians one day and accidentally kill them another depending on the requirements of politics. It means that the soldier does not fight for a noble or greater cause other but just to satisfy the needs of the politicians and satisfy their interests. All countries do the same. Now soldiers who join the forces believe they want to fight for freedom, fight for their country, to do their bit etc... can't be looked upon disdainfully because as wrong as they are they genuinely believe that fighting in the British armed forces is a worthy thing to do, because maybe they have the idea that they will in all actuality protect the people at home and think that Britain has a benevolent foreign policy. I doubt that many join for this reason but most of the population do bear some patriotic feeling which is unfortunate and must surely have some effect on the decision to join. I seem to be of the understanding though that you think that soldiers should be respected because they put their lives at risk to protect their people, but do not suicide bombers do the same? Suicide bombings affects and destroys military targets and civilian targets, but so does conventional warfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 The people who gave their lives in past wars and will again in future wars are the reason you sleep safe at night. I take my hat off to each and every person who is willing to die so that people like you can have the luxury of an opinion. Just for the sake of examining this idea further, I cannot think of wars that have led me to be safe at night. The Gulf War, Kosovo, Bosnia, Falklands, Malaya, Suez, Palestine, World War 2, World War I, Boer War, numerous 'small wars' in the colonies, and the Crimea, etc., are a list of just some of the major wars that Britain has fought. Of these I do not see how any other than World War 2 might have led to a situation where I sleep safe at night. But if this can be demonstrated or explained then I am willing to understand. I tend to look at things from the other perspective and to see the way the world is with it being comprised of nation states, each with their own military as a reflection of what is wrong with things today, it is what makes the world unsafe. (As an aside one should not talk about the luxury of an opinion, such an idea gives the impression that your free expression is a privilege, but such a thing is a necessity as the free being you ought to be.) And the fact they have the balls to sign up knowing they have a good chance of being killed for a greater cause makes them alot braver than people give them credit for. If you ask the people you work with if they would jump on a grenade or push you out of the way to take an incoming round then i imagine a few of them would say yes, but if it came to the test they would shit out like most people would. But what is this greater cause? This is what I was asking P.K. about earlier because I asked whether people genuinely join the forces to fight for their country, and the impression I got was that it was just another job. I would agree that someone who enters into a career where the chances of dying are far greater and where you would put yourself in danger makes someone very brave indeed! I just don't agree that this should equate with respect and I will further explain why below. If you cant see that fact or dont agree then i am glad i dont share the same ideals. A soldier has piss all to do with politics, they get told where to fight and they get on with it as best they can, they had the chance to stay near loved ones and get a normal job but they choose to fight away from comforts and loved ones knowing that one day they might just have to give their lives for the sake of a profession. If you dont respect the job they are doing or where they are doing it then take it out on the people in power. This is what I find bizarre though. Soldiers are not political but the field of work they are part of is nothing but political. The places they are sent, the grand strategy, the length of time they are somewhere, who their enemy is, who their allies will be are all to do with politics. If the soldier is not political then he can be ordered to justly fight off an invading army that will wish to install a more repressive regime in Britain for example, but he could also be sent to another country to invade them and do the same. He could help civilians one day and accidentally kill them another depending on the requirements of politics. It means that the soldier does not fight for a noble or greater cause other but just to satisfy the needs of the politicians and satisfy their interests. All countries do the same. Now soldiers who join the forces believe they want to fight for freedom, fight for their country, to do their bit etc... can't be looked upon disdainfully because as wrong as they are they genuinely believe that fighting in the British armed forces is a worthy thing to do, because maybe they have the idea that they will in all actuality protect the people at home and think that Britain has a benevolent foreign policy. I doubt that many join for this reason but most of the population do bear some patriotic feeling which is unfortunate and must surely have some effect on the decision to join. I seem to be of the understanding though that you think that soldiers should be respected because they put their lives at risk to protect their people, but do not suicide bombers do the same? Suicide bombings affects and destroys military targets and civilian targets, but so does conventional warfare. If I do not respect their job I do not need to do anything. I do not see respect for the forces as something expected or 'natural' for anyone to feel. In terms of the fact that I disagree with how the whole set-up of the world is with all these different nations with their respective militaries I do not respect and dislike the insititutions of the military. And therefore I do not respect the soldier for he carries operate within this institution but I do not disrespect the soldier, the soldier is just like any other mug, just like me in the world who needs to find a job. But you are right, the issue needs to be taken out with those in power. They direct the military. But I never was 'having a go' at the soldier, only saying that it should not be expected of me to respect him/her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 We are talking about showing some respect to those who have gave their lives. The philisophical debate could rage on and on. But IMO There is no harm in showing some respect to these guys and members of the armed forces of the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 We are talking about showing some respect to those who have gave their lives. The philisophical debate could rage on and on. But IMO There is no harm in showing some respect to these guys and members of the armed forces of the past. In this thread I was arguing against the seemingly conventional idea that people in the armed forces deserve respect because of their job. This I completely disagree with. Showing respect to those who are dead is quite different and means something different. I think about them on the 11 November and at many other times as military history is something I find to be interesting. I show respect by thinking about them, but if they were alive and fighting in WW1, WW2, Suez, or Malaya, I would no more support them in these conflicts as I would support today's soldiers in Iraq. But when you think about the dead you just have to think about what a waste of life it has all been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wake Up Call Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 We are talking about showing some respect to those who have gave their lives. The philisophical debate could rage on and on. But IMO There is no harm in showing some respect to these guys and members of the armed forces of the past. In this thread I was arguing against the seemingly conventional idea that people in the armed forces deserve respect because of their job. This I completely disagree with. Showing respect to those who are dead is quite different and means something different. I think about them on the 11 November and at many other times as military history is something I find to be interesting. I show respect by thinking about them, but if they were alive and fighting in WW1, WW2, Suez, or Malaya, I would no more support them in these conflicts as I would support today's soldiers in Iraq. But when you think about the dead you just have to think about what a waste of life it has all been. Wow Dolce V - you support class A drug dealers, thieves and now you don't care for soldiers who have given their lives for the society that you live in. I would love to know whatyour contribution to the Island is. Please enlighten me. Alternatively, just confirm what a loser you are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Give him a break WUC - he has read too much and not had enough real life experience. Fact is if he came out with any of this in public he would get the crap kicked out of him - unless the law saved him. He has had to buy a computer and pay for an internet connection, and thus compromised his anti-capitalist principles. It must be difficult for him trying to make a living out of basket weaving, but hey, he can always express his sympathies for low paid workers, and his lack of respect for soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Dolce, has a right to his opinion, it differs from mine I agree. But he does have a right to it. We all need a devils advocate............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Wow Dolce V - you support class A drug dealers, thieves and now you don't care for soldiers who have given their lives for the society that you live in. I would love to know whatyour contribution to the Island is. Please enlighten me.Alternatively, just confirm what a loser you are! I do not support drug dealing, drugs are not good but we shouldn't criminalise people taking them; I do not support theft, where did you get this idea from? If you are talking about shoplifting then this is not theft, but if I stole from you it would be; and I never said I do not care about the soldiers, where have I said that? I don't RESPECT simply because they are in the forces and I certainly do not SUPPORT them as such a term is total contradiction if you do not support what they are fighting for. My contribution to the Island? Why should I have made one to the ISLAND and why is one necessary? How are soldiers contributing to the Island or the UK? I contribute to my community by mentoring young, gay, homeless people and I am a Victim Support worker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortalpuppet Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 You are right, Soldiers dont contribute to the Island or the UK........ I am going to leave this thread now because its getting way too silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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