Baby P

[P.K.]

From The Daily Wail. I thought I would have a look and I wasn't disappointed. It has the chavscum family, the welfare state, Labour et al all rolled together into an easy-to-understand package. Sure the dysfunctional family portrayed are undoubtedly all in the mind of the writer but it's done to empathise with the readership and from the appalling "comments" that follow The Wail really is very good at what it does.

 

Before you ask yes it is a slow day for me...

[The Old Git]

It has the chavscum family,

 

I think the choice of snake and rottweiler as family pets told me all I needed to know about the parents

[Sebrof]

I do wonder why people grow up to lack so much empathy and respect for others, it may be pop psychology but I can only think that it is because they have never been given respect or any love. I would like to know why parents could not give such things to their children. I think you are right though by saying that the problems of the parents are transferred to the children a lot of the time, and one I believe is mainly related to economics.

 

Come, come, Dolch.

 

There are 70 million people in the UK. Whilst Baby P is not alone, infanticide is not exactly common. It's is a one in a million occurrence.

 

It's not appropriate to draw too many conclusions from one case, or even a handful of cases.

 

S

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I do wonder why people grow up to lack so much empathy and respect for others, it may be pop psychology but I can only think that it is because they have never been given respect or any love. I would like to know why parents could not give such things to their children. I think you are right though by saying that the problems of the parents are transferred to the children a lot of the time, and one I believe is mainly related to economics.

 

Come, come, Dolch.

 

There are 70 million people in the UK. Whilst Baby P is not alone, infanticide is not exactly common. It's is a one in a million occurrence.

 

It's not appropriate to draw too many conclusions from one case, or even a handful of cases.

 

S

 

Well in terms of what most people refer to when they talk about society falling apart with people not respecting each other and not wishing to show or seem to have empathy I do think economics largely comes into it, but I wouldn't hazard a guess as to why these two people are the way they are. I was really trying to demonstrate that the welfare system itself is not the problem.

 

It does make me wonder how more than one person can be complicit in such acts.

[Skeddan]

Sorry to say this but I think anyone who supposes this is 'evil' is a bit naive.

 

Without knowing details, if you have high dependency single mother who is benefits institutionalised, inner city estate gangsta attitude and subculture, a macho boyfriend who possibly has little impulse control, uses drugs, and has mental issues, a male infant that is not his own, who is in animal terms a competitor to his genes and potential offspring, and a high stress environment, you have potential for trouble. Add the mother being lazy and whining, and the boyfriend having to bath the baby who may wail and be awkward, and you can have loss of temper, anger and resentment. Mother lets it go to not upset boyfriend, boyfriend explains that 'he's alright' and doesn't do no harm - and teaching him to behave himself, stopping him 'disrespecting' him and so on.

 

It's more feral, degenerate and dysfunctional than anything. Vicky Pollard isn't 'evil' - that's possibly roughly the type of person involved here. You'd also think that they might have had psych evaluations which would identify the mother wouldn't be trusted and would be at risk in this way.

 

Evil is something else. This simply doesn't come close to being classed along with the atrocities that can be committed - deliberately and callously - e.g. by death squads and the like wanting to terrorise people in Africa, Asia, Central America. Some of the horrors that have been committed on babies and infants are just simply too sickening and disturbing to even describe.

[Chinahand]

I think the influence of religions have made Evil a too existential idea seperated from the act of doing evil.

 

Repeatedly abusing a child is an act of evil. Pure and simple.

 

Does this make the people who do such an act evil. People get quite stuck on this - they also get hung up on phrases like "evil in the world" as though evil is caused by a creature with glowing eyes, horns and a forked tail. I firmly believe there is much evil in the world, but firmly believe we have to escape from ideas of devils and and such like.

 

I have no trouble saying this was an evil act - the people doing it were commiting evil in what they did.

 

Evil isn't for ever and always - people who have commited a great evil can still be caring and loving to others or whatever. This fact makes it difficult to understand such acts and shows the simplicity of saying these people ARE evil as though this was an irredemable trait which makes them want to kick puppies, sacrifice virgins and find ways to corrupt God's realm.

 

Look at the act - punish the people for the act - and see if they are at risk of reoffending.

 

We should be offended by such behaviour and seek to combat it - explaining it away sociologically is confusing an "is" with an "ought" - we are right to aim to how society ought to be - we need to know how it is, but that does not stop us making a moral judgement on behaviours - in my view it is in fact vital.

 

These people did wrong. Don't try to explain that away.

[Casino Crazy]

Mother on toddler murder charge

A woman and two men have appeared in court charged in connection with the death of her 17-month-old son.

 

Tracey Connolly, 25, and Stephen Barker, 31, from north London, are accused of murder and allowing or causing the death of a child under 16.

 

Mr Barker's brother Jason, 35, is charged with allowing or causing the death of a child under 16.

 

They were remanded into custody by Highgate magistrates until a hearing at the Old Bailey on 23 November.

 

Concerns raised

 

The boy, named Peter, was declared dead at North Middlesex Hospital, north London, on 3 August.

 

A post-mortem examination carried out at Great Ormond Street Hospital proved inconclusive and further tests were due to be carried out.

 

Detectives were called to the hospital after concerns were raised by staff, a Metropolitan Police spokesman said.

 

Miss Connolly and Steven Barker, who live in Penhurst Road, Tottenham, and Jason Barker, of Wittersham Road, Bromley, south-east London, all appeared in court on Friday.

 

Source

[Gladys]

Come, come, Dolch.

 

There are 70 million people in the UK. Whilst Baby P is not alone, infanticide is not exactly common. It's is a one in a million occurrence.

 

It's not appropriate to draw too many conclusions from one case, or even a handful of cases.

 

S

 

One per week, according to Panorama tonight.

[Sebrof]

Come, come, Dolch.

 

There are 70 million people in the UK. Whilst Baby P is not alone, infanticide is not exactly common. It's is a one in a million occurrence.

 

It's not appropriate to draw too many conclusions from one case, or even a handful of cases.

 

S

 

One per week, according to Panorama tonight.

 

So why haven't the others been reported?

 

S

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Come, come, Dolch.

 

There are 70 million people in the UK. Whilst Baby P is not alone, infanticide is not exactly common. It's is a one in a million occurrence.

 

It's not appropriate to draw too many conclusions from one case, or even a handful of cases.

 

S

 

One per week, according to Panorama tonight.

 

Maybe it would be right to draw some conclusions in this case, I don't know.

[The Old Git]

Sorry to say this but I think anyone who supposes this is 'evil' is a bit naive.

 

Without knowing details,

 

I thought I read or heard on the radio yesterday that an ex gf said that the man liked to sedate frogs, break all of their bones and then bring them around to watch them writhe in agony.

 

I'd say there's something not quit right there

[Chinahand]

Come, come, Dolch.

 

There are 70 million people in the UK. Whilst Baby P is not alone, infanticide is not exactly common. It's is a one in a million occurrence.

 

It's not appropriate to draw too many conclusions from one case, or even a handful of cases.

 

S

 

One per week, according to Panorama tonight.

 

So why haven't the others been reported?

 

S

I would imagine because most of them are down to post natal depression, and because there isn't a media circus going round trying to find them.

 

Watch the press in the next few weeks - there will be more coverage of this sort of thing.

 

If those figures are right - then with 700,000 births a year in the UK the risk is about 7 per 100,000 - close to 1 baby per 10,000 births will end up murdered per year.

 

Post Natal depression is one horrible thing - and has very real risks to the baby, but it doesn't have the psycopathic or sadistic elements that this case has.

 

Community Nurses are vital to check that mother and child are doing ok, but stopping the type of sadism Baby P had to put up with - well what can you do? The sad fact is a group of bureaucrats will take more children into social care - sometimes with good cause, sometimes without.

 

The reports of debates between the various care workers show the difficult balance this takes - social care has its own problems, and it is very difficult to see whether you should be cautious and leave kids with potentially abuses parents, or be cautious and put them into care - both have risks of very poor outcomes for the children involved.

[Sebrof]

Come, come, Dolch.

 

There are 70 million people in the UK. Whilst Baby P is not alone, infanticide is not exactly common. It's is a one in a million occurrence.

 

It's not appropriate to draw too many conclusions from one case, or even a handful of cases.

 

S

 

One per week, according to Panorama tonight.

 

So why haven't the others been reported?

 

S

I would imagine because most of them are down to post natal depression, and because there isn't a media circus going round trying to find them.

 

Watch the press in the next few weeks - there will be more coverage of this sort of thing.

 

If those figures are right - then with 700,000 births a year in the UK the risk is about 7 per 100,000 - close to 1 baby per 10,000 births will end up murdered per year.

 

Post Natal depression is one horrible thing - and has very real risks to the baby, but it doesn't have the psycopathic or sadistic elements that this case has.

 

Community Nurses are vital to check that mother and child are doing ok, but stopping the type of sadism Baby P had to put up with - well what can you do? The sad fact is a group of bureaucrats will take more children into social care - sometimes with good cause, sometimes without.

 

The reports of debates between the various care workers show the difficult balance this takes - social care has its own problems, and it is very difficult to see whether you should be cautious and leave kids with potentially abuses parents, or be cautious and put them into care - both have risks of very poor outcomes for the children involved.

 

So the one-a-week instances are NOT similar to the Baby P scenario.

 

I imagine a lack of parental sleep is a factor.

 

S

[Gladys]

Come, come, Dolch.

 

There are 70 million people in the UK. Whilst Baby P is not alone, infanticide is not exactly common. It's is a one in a million occurrence.

 

It's not appropriate to draw too many conclusions from one case, or even a handful of cases.

 

S

 

One per week, according to Panorama tonight.

 

So why haven't the others been reported?

 

S

 

Probably because they were not so vicious and sadistic and they didn't involve Haringey.

[Skeddan]

Repeatedly abusing a child is an act of evil. Pure and simple.

 

I have no trouble saying this was an evil act - the people doing it were commiting evil in what they did.

 

These people did wrong. Don't try to explain that away.

 

I have no doubt these people did wrong. However I'd think that in a case of post-natal depression repeated child abuse - inflicting injuries and so on - isn't an 'act of evil'.

 

You distinguish between post-natal depression and sadistic and psychopathic crimes. Yes, I would put those as 'evil'.

 

I thought I read or heard on the radio yesterday that an ex gf said that the man liked to sedate frogs, break all of their bones and then bring them around to watch them writhe in agony.

 

If so, and if the abuse was similar psychopathic behaviour, I would have no trouble saying this was an evil act. (but I would be just a bit worried that the ex gf might be playing up to the media desire for a monster).

 

Genuine psychopaths can be truly evil and it is 'for ever and always'. It is an irredeemable trait. They can be controlled and contained, but not redeemed. (well perhaps if you zap parts of their brains or something). This isn't the same with sociopaths.

 

I agree - it shouldn't be explained away - it is important to get the right explanations.