" Darling's Isle Of Man Must Be On Some Other Planet "

[Sebrof]

IoM is not a tax haven for an NZ Resident, it can be for a UK resident. What does that tell you?

 

To answer the bit I haven't quoted first: if a jurisdiction enables somebody in another jurisdiction to reduce his tax bill, then the first jurisdiction is a tax haven.

 

And as for NZ residents, the IOM is also a potential tax haven, but to benefit from it they would have to break the law. Which of course the IOM would not knowingly be a party to.

 

S

[Sebrof]

whatever we call ourselves, others will call us a tax haven. So let's accept and embrace the term, and try to dissipate some of the pejorative connotations.

 

The expression is inherently pejorative - rather than merely having pejorative connotations.

 

For many people, the term "tax haven" has very positive connotations.

 

S

[Skeddan]

IoM is not a tax haven for an NZ Resident, it can be for a UK resident. What does that tell you?

 

To answer the bit I haven't quoted first: if a jurisdiction enables somebody in another jurisdiction to reduce his tax bill, then the first jurisdiction is a tax haven.

 

And as for NZ residents, the IOM is also a potential tax haven, but to benefit from it they would have to break the law. Which of course the IOM would not knowingly be a party to.

 

Yes ok - let's agree that tax haven abuse (tax evasion) is not something that should be allowed.

 

To rephrase what you say, if a jurisdiction enables somebody to use another jurisdiction to reduce his tax bill, then the second jurisdiction is a tax haven. So if the UK were to complain about IoM being a tax haven for tax avoidance, it is only an indictment of themselves.

 

If IoM are cooperative about information sharing and detecting and dealing with tax evasion, and the business is quite legal and proper and acceptable to the various nations involved, then what's wrong with that? Should IoM introduce measures to stop UK residents etc. taking advantage of their own country's tax laws?

[Sebrof]

If IoM are cooperative about information sharing and detecting and dealing with tax evasion, and the business is quite legal and proper and acceptable to the various nations involved, then what's wrong with that? Should IoM introduce measures to stop UK residents etc. taking advantage of their own country's tax laws?

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. My point was simply that while there are tax advantages to investing in the Isle of Man, then we will be called a tax haven. Nothing we say or do can stop the use of the term, but we can hope to show that there are good and bad tax havens, and we are a good one.

 

S

[pongo]

For many people, the term "tax haven" has very positive connotations.

 

Tax dodgers, oiks and spivs ?

 

[Skeddan]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. My point was simply that while there are tax advantages to investing in the Isle of Man, then we will be called a tax haven. Nothing we say or do can stop the use of the term, but we can hope to show that there are good and bad tax havens, and we are a good one.

 

Yes you could say there are abusive rogue tax havens and well-regulated responsible tax havens. Whether good or bad perhaps depends on what you are looking for. Note Obama's bill isn't 'Stop Tax Havens Act' it is 'Stop Tax Haven Abuse Act'.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to think IoM might not need some improving. Double dipping, Wyly case and other things perhaps need addressing. It would be a mistake to be taken in by own hype that it is 'clean' and suppose all criticism is unjustified. Being cooperative in combating tax evasion and abuse should be ongoing. IoM may be a 'good one' in terms of being cooperative and seeking to improve. That shouldn't be mistaken with supposing IoM has practices which are all that they should be and failing to appreciate that there may be legitimate criticism or concerns (which is something Allan Bell currently seems to be suffering from in relation to the US).

 

All that aside, it may be that the real threat is not cracking down on tax haven abuse - improved IEAs and the like, but the economic factors that could seriously damage the legit offshore business of the finance sector. As touched on earlier, very low interest rates could be very much more damaging than Obama's Stop Tax Haven Abuse Act. The semantics of whether or not IoM is a tax haven may have very little real impact on the economy - a cut in VAT rates, a further drop in interest rates, and investor security and depositor confidence are probably of very much greater significance.

[Sebrof]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. My point was simply that while there are tax advantages to investing in the Isle of Man, then we will be called a tax haven. Nothing we say or do can stop the use of the term, but we can hope to show that there are good and bad tax havens, and we are a good one.

 

Yes you could say there are abusive rogue tax havens and well-regulated responsible tax havens. Whether good or bad perhaps depends on what you are looking for. Note Obama's bill isn't 'Stop Tax Havens Act' it is 'Stop Tax Haven Abuse Act'.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to think IoM might not need some improving. Double dipping, Wyly case and other things perhaps need addressing. It would be a mistake to be taken in by own hype that it is 'clean' and suppose all criticism is unjustified. Being cooperative in combating tax evasion and abuse should be ongoing. IoM may be a 'good one' in terms of being cooperative and seeking to improve. That shouldn't be mistaken with supposing IoM has practices which are all that they should be and failing to appreciate that there may be legitimate criticism or concerns (which is something Allan Bell currently seems to be suffering from in relation to the US).

 

All that aside, it may be that the real threat is not cracking down on tax haven abuse - improved IEAs and the like, but the economic factors that could seriously damage the legit offshore business of the finance sector. As touched on earlier, very low interest rates could be very much more damaging than Obama's Stop Tax Haven Abuse Act. The semantics of whether or not IoM is a tax haven may have very little real impact on the economy - a cut in VAT rates, a further drop in interest rates, and investor security and depositor confidence are probably of very much greater significance.

 

Well, I wasn't addressing the issue of whether the IOM is perfect. What, or who, is? You're right to say this may merit some ongoing attention.

 

But coning to interest rates, there has been a lot of guff on here about low rates recently. Actually, rates on offer to savers are quite high at the moment.

 

S

[Sebrof]

For many people, the term "tax haven" has very positive connotations.

 

Tax dodgers, oiks and spivs ?

 

 

Not sure about oiks. In order to dodge tax, you must first have some tax to dodge. Oiks, I feel, tend to be fine-dodgers.

 

S

[Snaipyr]

I think all tax dodging is immoral and when suitcases full of money were being brought into the IOM I started to feel ashamed to be Manx - even though it was nothing to do with me, and still isn't.

[triskelion]

I think all tax dodging is immoral

Why? Because paying tax is an inherently moral activity?

[Gladys]

I think all tax dodging is immoral and when suitcases full of money were being brought into the IOM I started to feel ashamed to be Manx - even though it was nothing to do with me, and still isn't.

Thankfully, those days are long gone.

[%age]

But to be fair, suitcases full of money really are so passé.

 

There is many a loaded person arrives on the Island with their shed load. And we love 'em all, with never a passing thought, it seems, as to how they came about their wealth.

 

Oh, many had maiden aunts who left them £millions. Many happened to hit it big "in property". The list goes on. But however they achieved the wealth, the Isle of Man is an instantly friendly place for them to make home and new friends.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I think all tax dodging is immoral

Why? Because paying tax is an inherently moral activity?

 

Most do think that (even if I don't) because paying tax is seen to be a contribution to society. The impression I get is that tax dodging is something that is far easier to achieve the more wealth one has. If some people and businesses can dodge tax whilst others cannot then it must be stopped. Also, if the vast majority believe that paying tax is a social responsbility, why should some be allowed to shirk such responsibilities?

[Gladys]

But to be fair, suitcases full of money really are so passé.

 

There is many a loaded person arrives on the Island with their shed load. And we love 'em all, with never a passing thought, it seems, as to how they came about their wealth.

 

Oh, many had maiden aunts who left them £millions. Many happened to hit it big "in property". The list goes on. But however they achieved the wealth, the Isle of Man is an instantly friendly place for them to make home and new friends.

 

 

Wrong, wrong wrong! Source of wealth is one of the lines of enquiry for any new client.

 

Please be sure of your facts before you start grinding your axe.

[pongo]

Wrong, wrong wrong! Source of wealth is one of the lines of enquiry for any new client.

 

True. But those enquiries are often rather cursory. You would probably agree?

 

Anyhow - all of that has more to do with money laundering than with tax dodging.

 

I quite like the term tax dodging - since it neatly sums up both avoidance and evasion.