Manx Members Of The Bnp

[Chinahand]

LDV by your definition 90% of people are working class.

 

But nowadays the state means that you do not need towork in order to survive - so no one is working class.

 

Many of the so called middle classes don't work to survive - they could probably get a lower paid job and still get by, but they have ambitions which they see as being worth putting in the effort in to achieve - they want the bigger TV, or the holiday, or private education for their kids - and they want the recognition that they can achieve these things and respect at work etc etc.

 

Now the perennial debate is whether the socially disadvantaged are in the position they are in due to lack of ability or lack of opportunity. Are they stopped from doing better for themselves by circumstance, ability or choice? If it is the first two, most people are happy for them to recieve support to help them; but nowadays there is an increasing reaction against the socially disadvantaged due, I believe, to a feeling they stay where they are out of a perverse choice. I am skeptical of such ideas, but they seem incresingly common.

 

LDV in your posts you seem to imply that working is an imposition - people being forced into a social role against their will. What percentage of people do you think really have that attitude - isn't the (class) division you are seeking most likely to be those who embrace capitalist work and see it as a way to social and material goals and those who, as you seem to do, see it as an imposition on their freedom.

[Freggyragh]

Immigrants (ie not born here) to the Isle of Man are 52.4% of the population (2006) census.

Immigrants to the UK only account for 7.53% of the population (2001 census).

[pongo]

Immigrants (ie not born here) to the Isle of Man are 52.4% of the population (2006) census.

Immigrants to the UK only account for 7.53% of the population (2001 census).

 

You are comparing vastly different areas of territory in terms of size. Therefore the comparisons are pointless - or maybe that's your point.

 

You might as well compare Rutland with France - or Jamaica with Africa.

 

Actually - in this context you might as well compare the number of people born in Surrey (say) vs those who live there -> in comparison with immigration into the UK.

 

The IOM obviously isn't a county of Britain (blahdy blahdy blah) - but in terms of any population comparison it might as well be. Or else it will only make sense to compare it with similar sized nations.

 

I'm not sure whether I'm agreeing or disagreeing with you btw

[%age]

Just been listening to the Radio 4 news.

 

"The list has now been removed from the internet"

[Freggyragh]

I'm not anti-immigration - but I don't see why immigrants from one country are considered more desirable than those from another. Personally I think immigrants from outside the British Isles often have more to offer to our society. The only immigrants I object to are the ones that bring anti-social divisive ideology with them - particularly a racist ideology.

 

It is no excuse to claim that high immigration rates is a justification for joining the bnp. You can see from the maps I linked to that membership of the bnp doesn't have much to do with real immigration figures.

 

The class stuff is just bogus. Again, look at the map. Is Burnley anymore 'working class' than Glasgow?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

LDV by your definition 90% of people are working class.

 

But nowadays the state means that you do not need towork in order to survive - so no one is working class.

 

But the welfare state, is relatively modern and not a globally shared 'scheme', and I am not necessarily referring to just Britain or the Isle of Man. In order to see what I mean, you need to recognise that the welfare state is a reaction to the failings of capitalism. If there was no welfare state people would starve.

 

Many of the so called middle classes don't work to survive - they could probably get a lower paid job and still get by, but they have ambitions which they see as being worth putting in the effort in to achieve - they want the bigger TV, or the holiday, or private education for their kids - and they want the recognition that they can achieve these things and respect at work etc etc.

 

Of course many of the so-called middle classes work to survive. If they did not work AT ALL they would be on the streets or receiving benefit.

 

The middle class person is the one with enough wealth, assets, property, income, etc. to keep him alive without the need to rent out his labour to anyone or work for himself to get by.

 

LDV in your posts you seem to imply that working is an imposition - people being forced into a social role against their will. What percentage of people do you think really have that attitude - isn't the (class) division you are seeking most likely to be those who embrace capitalist work and see it as a way to social and material goals and those who, as you seem to do, see it as an imposition on their freedom.

 

Work in modern capitalist society is an imposition. That is fact! Not opinion. But the people take the way the work system is set-up today as just the way work is. But do the vast majority HAVE to work? Yes. Otherwise they starve or get shitty benefits (which means a really shitty life).

So many people recognise this imposition when you say refer to their 9 till 5 job, when they grumble about having to be up early in the morning, about how they are made to feel bad if sick, when they wish they could get more holidays, when they know their wages barely leaving with much money at the end of the month, etc.

 

So many people feel it is an imposition but have the attitude that they just HAVE to do it, and they are right, they do in this society. Everything is taken as a given but God do people complain about it all.

 

People do not question why the work system is like it is today, so they resign themselves to working their arses off in banks, accountants, factories, shops, transport, etc., all the time thinking that an 9-5 day is right and cannot be changed, that wages are necessary and cannot be got rid of, that people should pay money (rent, mortgage) to have a basic necessity, viz. a roof about one's head, that it is quite natural that for 8 hours a day you are under the authority of an employer and his/her managers.

 

All these things are completely unnecessary and can be changed. But not in a capitalist system because that is what created them. It used to seem far fetched thinking about how we could do without capitalism, but you even pick one of those points I have made it appears so SO wrong that it should be like this. I mean why the hell should anyone have to slave their arse off to have a roof above their head. But in a capitalist society property is sacrosanct.

 

Work can be enjoyable when you produce a social good, when you do work that fulfills your potential, when you are free to do what you will with you goods or service to satisfy your interests.

[kevster]

As my daughter is half Indian, I have no problems with people of 'other races' and I have a set of political views that are certainly 'left of centre'

 

The BNP is a legitimate political party and although most find it's views abhorrent, they have a right to be heard. That's the downside of what we call democracy.

[Sebrof]

Work in modern capitalist society is an imposition. That is fact! Not opinion.

All these things are completely unnecessary and can be changed. I mean why the hell should anyone have to slave their arse off to have a roof above their head.

 

LDV is a nitwit. That is fact! Not opinion.

 

Come on, Dolch, tell us the magic words that we can utter to get a roof over our heads without "slaving our arses off". We're all agog to know how the non-capitalist system will achieve this feat.

 

Now is your chance. So put up or shut up.

 

S

[Freggyragh]

Work can be rewarding in many ways besides providing a roof over your head you dummy. I love my work.

 

And I thought you had accepted the need to summarize the thoughts of Mao Tze-Tung in fewer words than the actual original.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Work in modern capitalist society is an imposition. That is fact! Not opinion.

All these things are completely unnecessary and can be changed. I mean why the hell should anyone have to slave their arse off to have a roof above their head.

 

LDV is a nitwit. That is fact! Not opinion.

 

Come on, Dolch, tell us the magic words that we can utter to get a roof over our heads without "slaving our arses off". We're all agog to know how the non-capitalist system will achieve this feat.

 

Now is your chance. So put up or shut up.

 

 

So you don't think work is imposed on people? And because of that you think I am a nitwit? Please explain.

 

The magic words? None, the only way would pull apart the system root to branch. The only way would be during a revolution but for this to happen you would need to people there who wanted rid of the system, this can only come about by offering them an education other than the conventional. Let them recognise that they can achieve far more by working towards a libertarian society, an anarchist society.

 

to get a roof over our heads without "slaving our arses off".

 

Even if you disagreed with some of my beliefs. Do you honestly believe it is right that people have to work to then pay to have somewhere to live? It is so wrong in my eyes. People should not need to pay anything, they need to bed and a home.

 

Work can be rewarding in many ways besides providing a roof over your head you dummy. I love my work.

 

It SOMETIMES can be. Depends on whether there is meaningfull learning, if you promotion pays for more luxuries to keep you happy, or maybe if you help others and can feel good about that.

 

I am certainly not saying that I think all people dislike their jobs. Some do find it rewarding for what they get out of it, I can understand people getting something out of helping the sick, in community support jobs, even in offering customer service to make people happy that they have spent money, or just in earning lots of money.

 

But the things I mentioned earlier about work in today's society remain. So for those renting out their labour to their employer they will experience alienation in their work, they will be robbed by accepting a wage, and hierarchies in the workplace need to go.

 

And to return to my point. Those 'lazy' people who don't work recognise the costs of working outweigh the rewards, if there are any.

 

The BNP is a legitimate political party and although most find it's views abhorrent, they have a right to be heard. That's the downside of what we call democracy.

 

They should have freedom of speach, but not a right to be heard. These are very different things. They should not be offered a platform for their views or any sort of respect and recognition as just another party, but they can say what they like. That is democracy. Nothing to fear about that though.

[oldmanxfella]

All these things are completely unnecessary and can be changed. But not in a capitalist system because that is what created them. It used to seem far fetched thinking about how we could do without capitalism, but you even pick one of those points I have made it appears so SO wrong that it should be like this. I mean why the hell should anyone have to slave their arse off to have a roof above their head. But in a capitalist society property is sacrosanct.

 

Work can be enjoyable when you produce a social good, when you do work that fulfills your potential, when you are free to do what you will with you goods or service to satisfy your interests.

 

Thats one of the most long winded, badly concieved, and totally illogical posts I've read. Basically your saying that you see nothing wrong with sponging off the system or under achieving as it is their choice.

 

Your welcome to live whatever life or support whatever lifestyle choices you want. Just remember though that the workers, as taxpayers, support all those who don't work through the benefit system so one persons lifestyle choice is at the expense of anothers.

[Lonan3]

The magic words? None, the only way would pull apart the system root to branch. The only way would be during a revolution but for this to happen you would need to people there who wanted rid of the system, this can only come about by offering them an education other than the conventional. Let them recognise that they can achieve far more by working towards a libertarian society, an anarchist society.

Stimulants do not give strength, comets do not give heat, and revolutions do not give liberty. Philarete Chasles (1754-1826)

[Alan Partridge]

After my attempts at discussing the BNP in another thread, I realise the depth of feeling against them after being told to get back to Britain etc. (Strange since I'm Manx?)

 

If you are Manx then you should be ashamed of yourself - supporting a bunch of British racist pricks.

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

I never said I was a supporter in fact I said I wasn't.

[The Old Git]

Just been listening to the Radio 4 news.

 

"The list has now been removed from the internet"

 

They will be playing whack-a-mole with that list for years. They may as well give up trying to remove it

[Alan Partridge]

The Island has nothing to be snug about. The only reason why the Island has not become a den of spongers is because of the finance sector, but it is still the same sort of people but with more money and a few bourgeois aspirations added. And the Island would be just as receptive to the BNP were it to have very high levels of immigration.

 

Talking through your arse I'm afraid.

 

We've had a good level of immigration in the last few years and it seems to have worked ok - Philippino, Polish, Eastern European, Indian, African. All without a rush towards the BNP or locals claiming they are nicking benefits or jobs off everyone else. If you look at Manx history it also works quite well - there are loads of Manx Italian families who are regarded as nothing but Manx following post WW2 immigration. I think it works ok over here and that's how I would like it to stay.

 

I'm going to stereo-type so here we go ...........

 

The typical BNP strong area seems to be areas where you have a bunch of tattoed fuckwitts on benefits who seem to think they are missing out. They're too friggin lazy to get off their arses - but then Britain owes them a living and all the immigrants are doing (in their minds) is sponging off the system that they have first priority on. They stick flags of St George in their windows, and if they are not on benefits they drive taxis for a living or do a bit of roofing.

 

I'm glad we don't have that attitude here although I've heard plenty of British immigrants wax lyrical about the lack of black faces over here and that's why they came. Its the nature of the beast I'm afraid.

 

If they can stereotype against immigrants I can stereotype against them. Nasty, useless, evil, knob-ends in my book. Nothing else. We don't need that sort of sh*t over here and hopefully we won't get it.

 

The reason we have not got a problem here is that the immigrants who come here, come to work, make an effort to live with us and don't live in huge no go areas!