[BBC News] Police arrest pair in drugs raid

[Slim]

Ah, I think I see what you mean. But smuggling does not necessarily imply a victim, money laundering does not necessarily imply that there is a victim of any real concern (to me anyway) but may have, though I see where you are coming from with gang related crime and extortion. Though I have not given this particular area of thing a great deal of thought, all things being equal legalisation might work, though I think it would take intervention by the State to circumvent the current supply chain and also take control of property where drugs could be harvested. I don't think this is possible.

 

With smuggling drugs there's often a victim. The guy doing the couriering isn't going through an airport with an arse full of drugs because its the career he always dreamed of. Without the demand from the drug comsumers, this wouldn't happen. People taking this stuff aren't harmless, they shouldn't be left alone, they're part of the problem.

 

Though talking about drugs in such a manner in relation to victims and coercion is really only demonstrating how an illegal profit making system works. With it being illegal, maybe there is more likelihood of having the supply limited to the few.

But I think your point about victims, coercion, and exploitation is only an extreme example of these factors arising from profit making exchanges. Those people working in these poor countries, say in factories or employed on forms, cerrtainly will be subject to forms of coercion and exploitation every day. But maybe legalisation would remove the violence and use of physical force.

 

Perhaps, but you'd have to decriminalize the whole drugs trade worldwide, and while doing that would probably create a wider more legitimate drugs industry, the costs involved and the nature of the product would still mean there'd be criminal activity, just like there is currently for legitimate drugs like Viagra. Taking illegal Viagra also isn't victimless in my view.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

So naughty people will obey laws telling them to stop using violence and physical force.

 

Ok.

 

No, I was speculating whether legalisation with a concomitant shift in the supply of drugs might remove the role of the drug baron and drug monopolys with power.

 

Perhaps, but you'd have to decriminalize the whole drugs trade worldwide, and while doing that would probably create a wider more legitimate drugs industry, the costs involved and the nature of the product would still mean there'd be criminal activity, just like there is currently for legitimate drugs like Viagra. Taking illegal Viagra also isn't victimless in my view.

 

Why would there still be criminal activity? And what do you mean about taking Viagra and the link with victims? I only ask because I am trying to understand what your issue is with drugs. Is it because it involves victims or because at some stage laws are broken.

 

With smuggling drugs there's often a victim. The guy doing the couriering isn't going through an airport with an arse full of drugs because its the career he always dreamed of. Without the demand from the drug comsumers, this wouldn't happen. People taking this stuff aren't harmless, they shouldn't be left alone, they're part of the problem.

 

What are you talking about? You are saying that because the person is involved in drugs and is being clandestine in supplying it it makes him a victim. Or that the distastefulness of the line of work he has to do because there are no other jobs makes him a victim?

 

If that is your thinking then my reply would be that most of the working population of the UK are victims. Victims of authority, victims because they need to do jobs that make profit for their employer, victims because they have little control over their work. But victim is not the first word that would spring to mind, but there is nothing starkly different about the drugs business that is different from many other forms of trade in the economy. Someone buys, someone sells, people who produce get shitted on, a tiny few gain power and wealth.

 

Can you explain more about this idea of victimisation please?

[Snaipyr]

If that is your thinking then my reply would be that most of the working population of the UK are victims. Victims of authority, victims because they need to do jobs that make profit for their employer, victims because they have little control over their work. But victim is not the first word that would spring to mind, but there is nothing starkly different about the drugs business that is different from many other forms of trade in the economy. Someone buys, someone sells, people who produce get shitted on, a tiny few gain power and wealth.

 

Can you explain more about this idea of victimisation please?

 

Some people actually enjoy their jobs - and work for employers who don't shaft them. You seem to have some big chip on your shoulder and I get the impression that it would be pointless explaining anything at all to you.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

If that is your thinking then my reply would be that most of the working population of the UK are victims. Victims of authority, victims because they need to do jobs that make profit for their employer, victims because they have little control over their work. But victim is not the first word that would spring to mind, but there is nothing starkly different about the drugs business that is different from many other forms of trade in the economy. Someone buys, someone sells, people who produce get shitted on, a tiny few gain power and wealth.

 

Can you explain more about this idea of victimisation please?

 

Some people actually enjoy their jobs - and work for employers who don't shaft them. You seem to have some big chip on your shoulder and I get the impression that it would be pointless explaining anything at all to you.

 

Then don't, but in not doing so it would seem like a cop out.

 

The point I am trying to make is that the idea of victimisation that I think Slim refers to is something that is related to lack of choice in jobs, coercion, and authority. But there are very similar parallels with most other forms of work.

 

My views on work are I suppose a bit like having a 'chip on my shoulder' and so I should, as should most people...but not all. Because most people simply do work for employers and the majority of those are not in certain management roles or in very specific types of employment that command very high wages. Therefore, the compensation that someone receives from doing their work is their wage. I find that system to be very wrong and ends up with the worker being shafted. Moreover, hierarchies and higher authorities in the workplace CANNOT be adequately justified.

 

I could have a job doing some really interesting work and love it! But the fact of me liking my job is one thing, but then there is the reality of having a manager and being paid wages for my efforts. I do not respect that authority, it angers me having to even acknowledge it, but I have no choice. And I find that fact of being paid a wage which is clearly far less than what my work is worth as being nothing more than theft. Now I carry a feeling of anger about the current system we live in, and it isn't selfish in simply moaning about only my position my society. My position is no different the majority of people in the western world and much of the rest of the globe. And it angers me how most people are essentially shafted by living in a capitalist system.

I was like most people and never questioned much about today's work, now I do and can't get over how indoctrinated we all are, though to different extents.

 

So maybe I do have a chip on my shoulder, but it is far far better than spending my life simply accepting things without question and not really recognising how bad they are. And recognising how bad things will differ from person to person but ultimately rests upon the question of how much control you want over your life, and how much you actually have, why you don't have that control, and what justifies whoever or whatever having control over you. It does make me angry thinking about, but thankfully I am politically aware and want to do something about it.

[macmannin]

Your continual whiny posts bores the shit out of me,your angst will mellow with age....

[hboy]

I could have a job doing some really interesting work and love it! But the fact of me liking my job is one thing, but then there is the reality of having a manager and being paid wages for my efforts. I do not respect that authority, it angers me having to even acknowledge it, but I have no choice. And I find that fact of being paid a wage which is clearly far less than what my work is worth as being nothing more than theft. Now I carry a feeling of anger about the current system we live in, and it isn't selfish in simply moaning about only my position my society. My position is no different the majority of people in the western world and much of the rest of the globe. And it angers me how most people are essentially shafted by living in a capitalist system.

 

That sounds like a [very, very] long winded way of describing yourself as a feckless, arrogant, lazy bastard with a massive chip on your shoulder.

[Pat Ayres]

I could have a job doing some really interesting work and love it! But the fact of me liking my job is one thing, but then there is the reality of having a manager and being paid wages for my efforts. I do not respect that authority, it angers me having to even acknowledge it, but I have no choice. And I find that fact of being paid a wage which is clearly far less than what my work is worth as being nothing more than theft. Now I carry a feeling of anger about the current system we live in, and it isn't selfish in simply moaning about only my position my society. My position is no different the majority of people in the western world and much of the rest of the globe. And it angers me how most people are essentially shafted by living in a capitalist system.

 

That sounds like a [very, very] long winded way of describing yourself as a feckless, arrogant, lazy bastard with a massive chip on your shoulder.

 

Or he could become self-employed, but that means taking risks and actually being able to do something people would pay for.

[thebees]

I know what LDV is talking about, his intentions are well placed and his judgement is fair. It is unfortunate but not surprising, that, under the current system his views are mocked - just like in the book. I think he/she should change his name to Frank Owen

[jimbms]

That sounds like a [very, very] long winded way of describing yourself as a feckless, arrogant, lazy bastard with a massive chip on your shoulder.

I have told you before he is well balanced, he has a chip on both shoulders

[Slim]

Why would there still be criminal activity? And what do you mean about taking Viagra and the link with victims? I only ask because I am trying to understand what your issue is with drugs. Is it because it involves victims or because at some stage laws are broken.

 

There's criminal activity because it's against the law! Because every part of the drugs trade is illegal, there's going to be victims at pretty much every stage. There's no protections, there's no reason for those involved to operate inside the law, so separate to the actual taking of drugs, you've all the crimes I mentioned which will also have victims. It goes on and on, money laundering, exploiting war and poverty, corruption, blackmail, kidnap. These things happen so criminals can supply drugs. It's not as simple as a couple of wasters getting high and not harming anyone. They have done so just by buying it.

 

And no, the people who are victims of the drugs trade aren't the same as wage slaves who are at least protected by the law and employment legislation, it's in a totally different league. Your average local employer wont kill your kids if you don't traffic his stuff in your chuff through customs. That clear enough?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I know what LDV is talking about, his intentions are well placed and his judgement is fair. It is unfortunate but not surprising, that, under the current system his views are mocked - just like in the book. I think he/she should change his name to Frank Owen

 

It is not surprising my views are mocked, but that is precisely because they run against what how the majority believe.

 

feckless, arrogant, lazy bastard

 

What rubbish, I can't see how you can think I am any of those things from my post,

 

Or he could become self-employed, but that means taking risks and actually being able to do something people would pay for.

 

You are right. It is an option open to a few and certainly gives far more control over your work than to work for an employer.

 

Your continual whiny posts bores the shit out of me,your angst will mellow with age....

 

Thankfully, the angst is getting worse. Why do whiny posts bore you or do you just disagree?

 

There's criminal activity because it's against the law!

 

Misread part of your earlier post, sorry. If every part of the drugs trade became legal then yes, I would think some criminal activity would continue in respect of addictive drugs where people run out of cash to fund their habit.

And if there are absolutely no controls by the state on the supply then because of the system we live under I would agree with you in your recognition that it is likely that drug barons will continue to exist, blackmailing will continue, there may be kidnap or even money laundering. But I wonder what changes will be caused by legalisation. But to completely remove these problems would involve taking control of the supply chain, maybe by the state, though though this will never happen.

[hboy]

feckless, arrogant, lazy bastard

 

What rubbish, I can't see how you can think I am any of those things from my post,

 

How can I? Its easy to back it up really just reading through your previous quotes:-

 

I could have a job doing some really interesting work and love it! But the fact of me liking my job is one thing, but then there is the reality of having a manager and being paid wages for my efforts. I do not respect that authority, it angers me having to even acknowledge it, but I have no choice.

 

That's arrogant alright and evidence of having a chip on both shoulders. Who the hell are you to object to having a manager? Usually in any job that is a person more experienced than you are who overseas what you do. What is wrong with having to acknowledge that this person has authority because they know more about the job than you? That is actually one of the most arrogant comments I've read on these boards, and is actually indicative of someone who has a huge superiority complex and hugely over inflated opinion of his role in society. Did you start work first day and demand to be running the company despite having no qualifications or experience to do the job?

 

And I find that fact of being paid a wage which is clearly far less than what my work is worth as being nothing more than theft.

 

What a load of shite. As Scrappy says if you want to be paid the full value of your work get off your arse and go self employed. But then you'd complain about taxes being robbery, and being a slave to your customers so best just stay sat on your lazy arse with only your own inflated sense of self esteem to keep you company whilst you watch Jeremy Kyle.

 

Now I carry a feeling of anger about the current system we live in, and it isn't selfish in simply moaning about only my position my society. My position is no different the majority of people in the western world and much of the rest of the globe. And it angers me how most people are essentially shafted by living in a capitalist system.

 

Most people have to earn money to eat. I wonder if you'd share the same views if you lived in Africa and where you'd starve if you didn't get off your arse and made some money. Has virtual anarchy worked in Zimbabwe - 10 years from controlled balanced capitalist economy to anarchic third world shithole.

 

So maybe I do have a chip on my shoulder, but it is far far better than spending my life simply accepting things without question and not really recognising how bad they are.

 

Yes you do - its a humungus chip on your shoulder as most people have observed. You have issues that you need to resolve regarding your over inflated view of your role in society. Even then if things are that bad why don't you get off your arse and change them ... oh hang on Jeremy Kyle is back on soon so best have a pot noodle and do fuck all again.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

That's arrogant alright and evidence of having a chip on both shoulders. Who the hell are you to object to having a manager? Usually in any job that is a person more experienced than you are who overseas what you do. What is wrong with having to acknowledge that this person has authority because they know more about the job than you? That is actually one of the most arrogant comments I've read on these boards, and is actually indicative of someone who has a huge superiority complex and hugely over inflated opinion of his role in society. Did you start work first day and demand to be running the company despite having no qualifications or experience to do the job?

 

I still cannot see the arrogance, are you so sure that management are indispensable? I am not talking about running the show on my own, I couldn't do it. The ideal would be direct democracy within the workplace in a non-capitalist system.

 

And believe me it is far from arrogance to object to management. Given the fact that people HAVE to work and spend 8 hours of their day in their workplace they effectively become the servants or slaves of that person. Find yourself a slightly less irriating term if you don't like servant or slave but you get the idea. The manager makes decision on that person and these decisions are not limited to just how the work is done. This authority is completely unjust. It is arrogant for a person to believe that they should have mastery over someone else because they have more experience or are more clever. I do think you have misunderstood my position on this.

 

What a load of shite. As Scrappy says if you want to be paid the full value of your work get off your arse and go self employed. But then you'd complain about taxes being robbery, and being a slave to your customers so best just stay sat on your lazy arse with only your own inflated sense of self esteem to keep you company whilst you watch Jeremy Kyle.

 

Scrappy is right to some extent, but the possibility of becoming selfemployed is only available to a small few with the skills. And it simply isn't viable for everyone to become self employed.

 

Most people have to earn money to eat. I wonder if you'd share the same views if you lived in Africa and where you'd starve if you didn't get off your arse and made some money. Has virtual anarchy worked in Zimbabwe - 10 years from controlled balanced capitalist economy to anarchic third world shithole.

 

you really have no idea what I am talking about do you? Go and read something about anarchism before wasting your time. The very fact that people have to use MONEY which are their WAGES for food is the problem. And there is nothing anarchic about Zimbabwe, are you getting mixed up with somewhere else? Maybe Somalia?

 

Yes you do - its a humungus chip on your shoulder as most people have observed. You have issues that you need to resolve regarding your over inflated view of your role in society. Even then if things are that bad why don't you get off your arse and change them ... oh hang on Jeremy Kyle is back on soon so best have a pot noodle and do fuck all again.

 

Well I hope I have deflated you somewhat with all this hot air. You really don't understand my politics at all. Go and get off your arse and read a book. And yes I intend on trying to change them, I imagine you would not though, you'd just accept things without question and carry on.

 

I do find it quite strange how easy it is to perceive someone as having a chip on their shoulder when commonly held beliefs are criticised. I could easily vent my anger about the level of crime in society, about how bad a programme was on telecvision, etc., but because I criticise and explain why I have criticisms of other things in society I am shouting down for having a chip on my shoulder. Now that truly is arrogance!

 

What is more amazing is that I am not actually attacking anyone, I am not pointing out anything other than facts about how the capitalist system operates but from a perspective that is not commonly held because it is not in favour of such a system. Why people are so up in arms I do not know, maybe because my views (anarchist) seem incomprehensivble or maybe misunderstood.

[hboy]

I still cannot see the arrogance

 

Well you wouldn't, would you? Most arrogant people can't.

 

Scrappy is right to some extent, but the possibility of becoming selfemployed is only available to a small few with the skills. And it simply isn't viable for everyone to become self employed.

 

That's laziness talking. The possibility of being self employed is actually available to EVERYONE which, frankly, is more than the possibility of being employed - not everyone can find a job but most find a way of getting by and paying the bills from their own efforts (ie, self employment). Do you expect to be just given money or food or heating etc? You don't want to work and now you're saying its too hard to be self employed too. Better stay on the dole and sponge off everyone else then - its better than having to do anything difficult or sully your day having to associate with people who might just be a threat to your own ludicrous sense of self importance.

 

you really have no idea what I am talking about do you? Go and read something about anarchism before wasting your time. The very fact that people have to use MONEY which are their WAGES for food is the problem. And there is nothing anarchic about Zimbabwe, are you getting mixed up with somewhere else? Maybe Somalia?

 

Ahem. Zimbabwe has a virtual barter system now money hardly changes hands. You want food you pay in diesel etc its easier than paying with a wheelbarrow full of worthless paper. To me its the very epitomie of all the shit you spout about money and wages being bad. You have a pure barter based virtually anarchic society - where people are being wiped out in droves by disease and violence.

 

Well I hope I have deflated you somewhat with all this hot air. You really don't understand my politics at all. Go and get off your arse and read a book. And yes I intend on trying to change them, I imagine you would not though, you'd just accept things without question and carry on.

 

I don't want to understand your politics because your politics are shite and your pathetic schoolyard take on anarchism is frankly laughable. From what you've said about your beliefs I deduce quite simply that you're a sponger that does not want to work but still wants to live and eat and drink without doing any graft for it. Because grafting is somehow beneath you.

 

All anarchists sell out in the end - even feckless drunken poets like Rimbauld sold out in later life to live a comfortable merchants existence rather than die in adject poverty by sticking to their 'ideals'.

 

What is more amazing is that I am not actually attacking anyone, I am not pointing out anything other than facts about how the capitalist system operates but from a perspective that is not commonly held because it is not in favour of such a system. Why people are so up in arms I do not know, maybe because my views (anarchist) seem incomprehensivble or maybe misunderstood.

 

Its the arsey, sanctimonious, egotistical way you put your views across that gets peoples backs up not your views per see.

[The Old Git]

you really have no idea what I am talking about do you? Go and read something about anarchism before wasting your time. The very fact that people have to use MONEY which are their WAGES for food is the problem. And there is nothing anarchic about Zimbabwe, are you getting mixed up with somewhere else?

 

 

FFS - How come every thread, no matter the subject, that LDV post in seems to end up back with this shit?