[BBC News] Police arrest pair in drugs raid

[Snaipyr]

What is more amazing is that I am not actually attacking anyone, I am not pointing out anything other than facts about how the capitalist system operates but from a perspective that is not commonly held because it is not in favour of such a system. Why people are so up in arms I do not know, maybe because my views (anarchist) seem incomprehensivble or maybe misunderstood.

 

I don't think your views are incomprehensible or misunderstood, just simplistic, a bit confused and certainly not all facts. (I remember a few anarchists, communists, women's libbers, hippes and all sorts from my student days back in the 70's - all spouting their views on a better, fairer, more just society - and a good thing too at that age - but we have moved on a bit since then.) . We supposedly live in a meritocracy - in theory anyone can achieve what they want (given the motivation, drive, commitment blah, blah, blah). But essentially our personal values are the key to what we achieve. Some just want power or riches and don't much care how they get it or who they shaft on the way. Others get their satisfaction by helping others because it makes them feel good, or train for careers where they can work to help the environment. Other just want to earn enough to enable them to do what they enjoy in their spare time because, unfortunately, not everyone can be a professional musician, artist, racing driver or whatever. But I don't think they'd consider themselves to be slaves of a capitalist society because they're getting what they want from the system.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Well you wouldn't, would you? Most arrogant people can't.

 

Cop out

 

That's laziness talking. The possibility of being self employed is actually available to EVERYONE

 

Is it really? Do you genuinely believe that in today's society there is such an availability of resources and capital that anyone can become self-employed? Does everyone have the basic entrepreneurial skills to be self-employed? Can the population and levels of production be sustained by having most or even everyone working self-employed?

 

Ahem. Zimbabwe has a virtual barter system now money hardly changes hands. You want food you pay in diesel etc its easier than paying with a wheelbarrow full of worthless paper. To me its the very epitomie of all the shit you spout about money and wages being bad. You have a pure barter based virtually anarchic society - where people are being wiped out in droves by disease and violence.

 

A barter system! Solely in itself, that is not what constitues anarchism.

 

I don't want to understand your politics because your politics are shite and your pathetic schoolyard take on anarchism is frankly laughable. From what you've said about your beliefs I deduce quite simply that you're a sponger that does not want to work but still wants to live and eat and drink without doing any graft for it. Because grafting is somehow beneath you.

 

Well this is where I might be wasting my time in replying to your posts because you DON'T want to understand. If you don't want to understand don't attack my politics because it is obvious you do not understand. It is completely ridiculous for you to say I have a pathetic schoolyard take on anarchism when you have demonstrated no understanding of anarchism in opposition to my own and have not even advanced reasons for why the status quo is acceptable.

 

All anarchists sell out in the end - even feckless drunken poets like Rimbauld sold out in later life to live a comfortable merchants existence rather than die in adject poverty by sticking to their 'ideals'.

 

No, you are wrong. Not ALL anarchists do sell out. Many anarchists have 'sold out', many communists have too, as have liberals, conservatives, etc. What is your point?

 

Its the arsey, sanctimonious, egotistical way you put your views across that gets peoples backs up not your views per see.

 

I do not think I have been arsey or egotistical though maybe I have been sanctimonious in seeing my morals as better than others when discussing particular issues, but this apparent sanctimony cannot lead to an egotistical attitude because we are all subject to the same forms of indoctrination in respect of the system of work that we live in.

I will afford you to respect to apologise if you find my posts to be arsey, but what comes across very clearly is that you do not understand what I am getting at.

 

I am picking up most about your ignorance of my beliefs in your repeated comments that I believe work to be bad and it is something to be avoided, hence being on the dole is better. But being on the dole is not a good thing. Being on the dole is something that happens in a capitalist system and is a reflection of the failings of capitalism. I don't want to be on the dole. I want to live comfortably and do a job I enjoy and I have the qualifications to do so. However, in recognising that freedom and control over one's life is something paramount to happiness and self expression I have to recognise all the wrongs of the MODERN forms of working practices that exist today. If you want me to elaborate further I would be happy to do so, or you can read into any marxist or anarchist texts, but if you are not arsed about doing so do not criticise what you are unwilling to understand.

 

FFS - How come every thread, no matter the subject, that LDV post in seems to end up back with this shit?

 

Quite right, but believe me having to reply is far more dull and arduous than having to read! It just seems that those unwilling to view issues from alternative perspectives are those who are all to ready to attack them. But then I have to explain anarchist perspectives and then retort. It is frustrating and detracts from the topic.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

but we have moved on a bit since then.) . We supposedly live in a meritocracy - in theory anyone can achieve what they want (given the motivation, drive, commitment blah, blah, blah). But essentially our personal values are the key to what we achieve. Some just want power or riches and don't much care how they get it or who they shaft on the way. Others get their satisfaction by helping others because it makes them feel good, or train for careers where they can work to help the environment. Other just want to earn enough to enable them to do what they enjoy in their spare time because, unfortunately, not everyone can be a professional musician, artist, racing driver or whatever. But I don't think they'd consider themselves to be slaves of a capitalist society because they're getting what they want from the system.

 

Well you are right, most would not consider themselves to be wage slaves, most would not understand what that means because there is an almost uniform acceptance of how the world of work operates and a particular way in which work in today's society is viewed. We are indoctrinated to believe that it is simply the way things are and cannot be changed. I didn't bother to question things a year ago because I saw no point, I thought things could not be changed and one should accept the way things are in society. But then I recognised what really matters and that is control over your life with a concomitant analysis of how such control is wrested from me and most other people. That is what bothers me.

 

Things really haven't moved on in my opinion. You talk about achievement but what does this mean to you? People could work their arse off to end up in jobs that pay very very well. This person has achieved that but this is not the issue. The issue is about the forms of control and lack of freedoms that the vast majority have.

 

Anyway, shall me move back to the topic of drugs?

[Snaipyr]

Yes, good idea because you're losing it on this one. (By the way, have you just started an 'A' level Sociology course or something?)

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Yes, good idea because you're losing it on this one. (By the way, have you just started an 'A' level Sociology course or something?)

 

On this one? I lost track what it was about, and others replies have turned into something less of a debate or argument and more into passing statements of insult.

 

Though I do find what you say about meritocracy to be interesting, but I don't see how you can see it to be the case that people's situations are the product of free will.

[Snaipyr]

Yes, good idea because you're losing it on this one. (By the way, have you just started an 'A' level Sociology course or something?)

 

On this one? I lost track what it was about, and others replies have turned into something less of a debate or argument and more into passing statements of insult.

 

Though I do find what you say about meritocracy to be interesting, but I don't see how you can see it to be the case that people's situations are the product of free will.

 

Go to bed and think about it!

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Yes, good idea because you're losing it on this one. (By the way, have you just started an 'A' level Sociology course or something?)

 

On this one? I lost track what it was about, and others replies have turned into something less of a debate or argument and more into passing statements of insult.

 

Though I do find what you say about meritocracy to be interesting, but I don't see how you can see it to be the case that people's situations are the product of free will.

 

Go to bed and think about it!

 

I will, thoug the topic of occupations is not the issue however. There are very big impediments to free will and free will in a capitalist society leads to denial of choices for others.

[jimbms]

There are very big impediments to free will and free will in a capitalist society leads to denial of choices for others.

Roughly translated I see that as meaning those who get off their arses work hard and better themselves reap the benifits whilst the lazy bone idle bastards who think the world owes them a living moan because they can't earn the same for slobbing in front of the TV watching daytime crap whilst scrounging state benifits from those who work for a living.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Roughly translated I see that as meaning those who get off their arses work hard and better themselves reap the benifits whilst the lazy bone idle bastards who think the world owes them a living moan because they can't earn the same for slobbing in front of the TV watching daytime crap whilst scrounging state benifits from those who work for a living.

 

Well you are right, those who do work very hard do tend to reap more benefits. However, as particular people reap more and more benefits (and others reap wealth without actually doing work) you end up with the forms of social inequality that exist today, you end up with the scroungers.

But of course there are those who work very hard in low paid jobs who get do not reap many benefits at all. I don't see it, if it is what you mean as a matter as simple as how much effort you put in.

The State has created a situation where people rely on it for their survival, it is not a good situation as it does mean that the State is pinching more of your and my money to give it to others and this is money we have worked hard for, but a worse situation will exist if the welfare state disappeared. Then you will end up with the homeless and beggars.