Iraq

[purrrrrrrrrrry]

Mo - the only massive, massive threat to world peace is GWB.

[the mo beats experience]

sorry, but if you believe that you are mental.

why did 9/11 happen, why have all these other bombings been going off around the world, is it because of bush? i don't necessarilly think that is the case.

nor do i believe that if he weren't in office then these attrocities wouldn't have happened.

 

so what would you have done given the state of affairs, i asked you that question and you skated around it with a jibe at bush. what would you do?

 

you can't leave these people to do what they want can you? left to their own devices they'd have everyone dead as soon as look at them.

 

i dislike bush too, i think he's a wazeg, but i don't know what the answer is, it definately isn't "let them crack on"!

[purrrrrrrrrrry]

sorry, but if you believe that you are mental.

 

What, me and the rest of the 71% of Europeans who think it so?

 

Mo, have you heard the news today? I'm really looking forward to the outcome of it - maybe it won't just be Saddam who ends up on trial?!

 

Btw: to what would I do?

 

Some pro-war types are of the ilk that if only you could wade in and wipe 'em all out, everything will be hunky dory.

 

But real life is different to that mo.

 

You can kill as many ppl as you like, but you'll never kill a belief. And you'll certainly have no chance of changing that whilst you are murdering, torturing their people and devastating their homes, their livelihoods, their places of worship, their country.

 

That quotation a few posts back was my answer. Before you even asked.

[Guest Rox]

*gulp*

 

That was a bloody good post purrrry.

[magneto]

Hmm I don’t know what it is with some people... They think the Bush Administration is the root of all our problems.. This simply is not true. What we are seeing is an intensification of decades of American foreign policy in the Middle East - I mean did Reagan/Bush not use the conflict between Iran/Iraq as a war against Iranian fundamentalism? Did Clinton not kill many thousands of innocent Iraqis by the enforcing sanctions + his illegal bombing of Iraq in 2000? This has been going on for years. The 80’s & 90’s were in fact the phoney war stage of the ‘War on Terror’. Also when people talk about the reasons for the war & subsequent occupation of Iraq they tend to get wrapped up in the US’s economic need for oil. True the US economy needs oil. But US foreign policy demands CONTROL of oil production & there’s the difference, The US wants control over oil production via an Iraqi puppet government not a costly occupation. With the US controlling Iraqi, Saudi & Central Asian oil flow (hence the show of strength in Afghanistan) this gives the US unprecedented economic leverage over the EU & more importantly the emerging powers in SE Asia & China.

 

To be frank do you really think it would get any better with Kerry in Whitehouse?

Different faces but the policies remain the same.. that’s politics.

[the mo beats experience]

still no answers as to what should be done about these fundamentalists though, can't turn back time, ask Cher, they've been pretty quiet of late too, which fills me with dread. these people have been at war with us for years, the future looks bleak.

[magneto]

This whole Islamic Fundamentalism thing was actively encouraged if not created by the US in the late 70's (to overthrow the Shah) then later to give the "Soviets their Vietnam" (Afghanistan). Unfortunately Islamic Fundamentalism was a product of shortsighted US foreign policy & once the genie was out of the bottle... well we're now living with those consequences.

 

I think the only solution is to either drop the pretence that it is not a war on certain aspects of Islam or drop the double-standards.

 

Once people see the US for what it really is.. The defender of wealth, privilege & greed as opposed to the defender of truth, justice & liberty. Well you'll see where these double standards lie.

[purrrrrrrrrrry]

*gulp*

 

That was a bloody good post purrrry.

Why, thankyou Lady Rox - praise indeed! Very good to see you around the place Rox

 

 

still no answers as to what should be done about these fundamentalists though, can't turn back time, ask Cher, they've been pretty quiet of late too, which fills me with dread. these people have been at war with us for years, the future looks bleak.

*Excuse me* Mo!

 

As I said already, I gave you my answer before you even asked.

 

Just because it was the basic philosophy and not the "Idiot's Guide" or "101" don't diss me fella! Hey, maybe I should have included a song title or artist? Well ok then, try this:

 

If you tolerate this

Then your children will be next

 

(Manic Street Preachers)

 

I totally agree with you that the future looks bleak, but not for the reasons that you think -- any bleakness is down to GWB - and, more scarily, mainstream America who despite everything might just manage to re-elect him - I for one wouldn't be *too* suprised.

 

Magneto summed things up the US brilliantly with:

 

Once people see the US for what it really is.. The defender of wealth, privilege & greed as opposed to the defender of truth, justice & liberty.

 

Clinton got impeaced for having sex out of marriage, what does invading a country for oil, "accidently" killing thousands of people in the process of war, lying to your people and having over a thousand of your soldiers die needlessly get you? 50% support of a nation of people scared of admitting and seeing the truth. That their leader is a rogue.

 

THAT is the only scary thing here Mo.

 

The War on Terrorism has been seen by many to actually be a War on Oil.

 

Happily, it just might be becoming a War on Truth.

 

I hope so, for all of our sakes.

[Rog]

Is anyone, even for a New-York Second, sugesting that islam represents truth, justice & liberty?

[Static]

Rog - I've still not seen you answer the question from Dave The Cardboard Box - where did your information regarding the alledged 1.7 tonnes of enriched uranium come from?

 

Can you please post a link to back up that claim as the only information that I ever saw claiming that Saddam had Uranium turned out to be from forged documents.

 

Thank you in advance of your reply.

[Dave the Cardboard Box]

Did anyone see Panorama last night?

 

Mostly the views of Doctor Brian Jones, who said the same tbings in evidence at the Hutton Enquiry, which Hutton took no notice of.

 

Basically, the alleged crucial evidence of WMD, which came in at the last minute, after a desperate request for something more substantial, just before the Dossier was published, was never shown to the experts for evaluation, but only seen by the political heads of the JIC, who had no expertise.

 

Since been withdrawn, and never seen since.

 

Blair also said in his evidence to Hutton that the had seen "large amounts of continuing evidence of WMD, coming across his desk"

 

Doctor Jones, (the head of the team supplying and evaluating the evidence) said, there was no such quantity. In fact he put in writing at the time his concerns about the lack of information to back up what was to be put in the dossier. He gave that evidence to Hutton as well.

 

Before someone rants off about the BBC not being trusted, I will guarantee that the Panorama programme will have been double-double checked, all sources confirmed, legal views taken, before any of that was broadcast last night.

 

In fact it was all stuff we have heard before, but nicely packaged together.

[Rog]

Rog - I've still not seen you answer the question from Dave The Cardboard Box - where did your information regarding the alledged 1.7 tonnes of enriched uranium come from?

 

Can you please post a link to back up that claim as the only information that I ever saw claiming that Saddam had Uranium turned out to be from forged documents.

 

Thank you in advance of your reply.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Source --- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3872201.stm

 

Item follows ----

 

“The US has revealed that it removed more than 1.7 metric tons of radioactive material from Iraq in a secret operation last month.

 

"This operation was a major achievement," said US Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham in a statement.

He said it would keep "potentially dangerous nuclear materials out of the hands of terrorists"

.

Along with 1.77 tons of enriched uranium, about 1,000 "highly radioactive sources" were also removed.

 

The material was taken from a former nuclear research facility on 23 June, after being packaged by 20 experts from the US Energy Department's secret laboratories.

It was flown out of the country aboard a military plane in a joint operation with the Department of Defence, and is being stored temporarily at a Department of Energy facility.

 

The United Nations nuclear watchdog - the International Atomic Energy Agency - and Iraqi officials were informed ahead of the operation, which happened ahead of the 28 June handover of sovereignty.

 

'Dirty bomb'?

 

The explosion of a so-called "dirty bomb" in a city by a terrorist group is a major concern of Western intelligence agencies.

Rather than causing a nuclear explosion, a "dirty bomb" would see radioactive material combined with a conventional explosive - probably causing widespread panic and requiring a large clean-up operation.

 

Uranium would not be suitable for fashioning such a device, though appropriate material may have been among the other unidentified "sources".

[Rog]

And there's more to consider ---

 

Source? http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtr...breaking_1.html

 

UN inspectors: Saddam shipped out WMD before war and after

 

The United Nations has determined that Saddam Hussein shipped weapons of mass destruction components as well as medium-range ballistic missiles before, during and after the U.S.-led war against Iraq in 2003.

 

The UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission briefed the Security Council on new findings that could help trace the whereabouts of Saddam's missile and WMD program.

 

The briefing contained satellite photographs that demonstrated the speed with which Saddam dismantled his missile and WMD sites before and during the war. Council members were shown photographs of a ballistic missile site outside Baghdad in May 2003, and then saw a satellite image of the same location in February 2004, in which facilities had disappeared.

 

UNMOVIC acting executive chairman Demetrius Perricos told the council on June 9 that "the only controls at the borders are for the weight of the scrap metal, and to check whether there are any explosive or radioactive materials within the scrap," Middle East Newsline reported.

 

"It's being exported," Perricos said after the briefing. "It's being traded out. And there is a large variety of scrap metal from very new to very old, and slowly, it seems the country is depleted of metal."

 

"The removal of these materials from Iraq raises concerns with regard to proliferation risks," Perricos told the council. Perricos also reported that inspectors found Iraqi WMD and missile components shipped abroad that still contained UN inspection tags.

 

He said the Iraqi facilities were dismantled and sent both to Europe and around the Middle East. at the rate of about 1,000 tons of metal a month. Destionations included Jordan, the Netherlands and Turkey.

 

The Baghdad missile site contained a range of WMD and dual-use components, UN officials said. They included missile components, reactor vessel and fermenters – the latter required for the production of chemical and biological warheads.

 

"It raises the question of what happened to the dual-use equipment, where is it now and what is it being used for," Ewen Buchanan, Perricos's spokesman, said. "You can make all kinds of pharmaceutical and medicinal products with a fermenter. You can also use it to breed anthrax."

 

The UNMOVIC report said Iraqi missiles were dismantled and exported to such countries as Jordan, the Netherlands and Turkey. In the Dutch city of Rotterdam, an SA-2 surface-to-air missile, one of at least 12, was discovered in a junk yard, replete with UN tags. In Jordan, UN inspectors found 20 SA-2 engines as well as components for solid-fuel for missiles.

 

"The problem for us is that we don't know what may have passed through these yards and other yards elsewhere," Buchanan said. "We can't really assess the significance and don't know the full extent of activity that could be going on there or with others of Iraq's neighbors."

 

UN inspectors have assessed that the SA-2 and the short-range Al Samoud surface-to-surface missile were shipped abroad by agents of the Saddam regime. Buchanan said UNMOVIC plans to inspect other sites, including in Turkey.

 

In April, International Atomic Energy Agency director-general Mohammed El Baradei said material from Iraqi nuclear facilities were being smuggled out of the country.

 

 

Report: U.S suspects Iraqi WMD in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley

 

U.S. intelligence suspects Iraq's weapons of mass destruction have finally been located.

 

Unfortunately, getting to them will be nearly impossible for the United States and its allies, because the containers with the strategic materials are not in Iraq.

 

Instead they are located in Lebanon's heavily-fortified Bekaa Valley, swarming with Iranian and Syrian forces, and Hizbullah and ex-Iraqi agents, Geostrategy-Direct.com will report in Wednesday's new weekly edition.

 

U.S. intelligence first identified a stream of tractor-trailer trucks moving from Iraq to Syria to Lebaon in January 2003. The significance of this sighting did not register on the CIA at the time.

 

U.S. intelligence sources believe the area contains extended-range Scud-based missiles and parts for chemical and biological warheads.

 

Mutually-lucrative Iraqi-Syrian arms transactions are nothing new. Firas Tlas, son of Syrian Defense Minister Mustafa Tlas, has been the key to Syria's rogue alliance with Iraq. He and Assad made hundreds of millions of dollars selling weapons, oil and drugs to and from Iraq, according to the May 13, 2003 edition of Geostrategy-Direct.com.

The CIA now believes a multi-million dollar deal between Iraq and Syria provided for the hiding and safekeeping of Saddam's strategic weapons.

 

Not surprisingly, U.S. inquiries in Beirut and Syria are being met with little substantive response, U.S. officials said."

 

End of article.

 

My guess is that today the Governmental Movers and Shakers in US as well as the UK figure that the domestic political costs of launching a strike against Syria, no matter how justified, is unbearable, quite apart from the utter mayhem that would break out in the UN. There would be hysterical screams about proof positive that the US was engaging in a ‘war against islam’ as well as every xxxx hole nation that has fouled what was once a great and honourable institution doing political deals for oil and / or influence all over the place.

 

When offset against the risks and danger in late 2002 / 2003 compared to today it does make sense.

[magneto]

Is anyone, even for a New-York Second, sugesting that islam represents truth, justice & liberty?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Show me a religion that does..

 

As for Hutton/Dr Kelly etc... I would say the whole thing was 'black' PR exercise that backfired.. This whole thing about the BBC being impartial & unbiased.. Yeah right.. How much airtime did the Anti War protesters get?? & Its loaded 'debates'... makes yer laugh.. Kelly & Gilligan were to be the scapegoats.. But little did they know Kelly would top himself & land them in world of xxxx..

 

Scapegoat Kelly & Gilligan, smack on the wrists, BBC maintains the illusion of impartiality.. not only that people would be suckered in to believing what ever xxxx it spouts next time round. I mean it’s sad to think that people look to the media to inform them.. Not sure who it was who said treat the media as the enemy (of activism).

[Static]

Rog - thank you for the reply on the Uranium. Problem you have with that post is that the uranium and other radioactive materials has been known about by the authorities since before 1992. Please see the following link that explains it in more detail. This material had been sealed by the International Atomic Energy Agency in 1992. Old news I'm afraid and not at all relevent to WMD. The Americans moved it (against UN Nuclear watchdog rules!) to stop it getting into the "wrong" hands

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5380542/

 

Unfortunately your other link does not work so I can't really comment on that piece except to say the following: The article (the bits you quote) state that Saddam shipped WMD COMPONENTS out to a number of countries. Could it be that he was complying with UN resolutions and dis-mantling them? Why else would parts from an SA-2 surface-to-air missile be found in a Dutch scrap-yard?