jim Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 I dont get the meaning of this thred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snaipyr Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 The future of farming is quite simply fewer farmers - larger farms, where equipment, overheads etc have larger more diversified businesses to support them. The subsidies just perpetuate the current system. Compared to the UK and elsewhere manx farms are small, and hence less efficient - the contribution of the various business units are too small to cover depreciation and overheads. The result is older equipment which is less efficient and just perpetuates the problem. Cash from the government just papers over these cracks. Madness. The idea that the Isle of Man would become a wilderness if there was a major consolidation of the farming industry is simply a myth - let the good farmers grow and become even more efficient and let the others move on. Right on - let's see hedges grubbed out, dubs filled in, no field margins for wildlife, and any other obstacles, like trees, removed because they could be in the way of massive farm equipment. I had the misfortune to live in the heartland of efficient farming in Cambridgeshire for a few years - and a bleak experience it was. The only wildlife I saw were millions of beatles marching in search of food one year because of the use of a new pesticide which eliminated whatever it was they fed on. And the stench of the intensive pig rearing units and the battery farms for chickens and turkeys was horrific (as is the practice itself). Yes Manx farms are smaller, but the Isle of Man is small. Not everything should be measured in terms of efficiency and economics - farmland should not just be 'a business unit'. What about biodiversity, compassion towards the animals we eat, and the quality of our environment. I'd pay more tax for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manx maid Posted December 5, 2008 Author Share Posted December 5, 2008 o joy the subs quastion again, here go again, let the bashing start, manx maid, are u part of the group that is putting the signs up round the island Farmers for Productive Farming is the name of the group and did I see you ripping one down ? or defacing one ? it seems some people don't want Jo Public to know what is going on... If you are bored with this topic already, why join the debate and what difference would it make if I was part of the group who were trying to raise Public interest in this issue ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Farmers for Productive Farming is the name of the group and did I see you ripping one down ? or defacing one ? it seems some people don't want Jo Public to know what is going on... oo somebody got a bee in there bonnet If you are bored with this topic already, why join the debate and what difference would it make if I was part of the group who were trying to raise Public interest in this issue ? no im not bored of the topic, i just know how it start and end, the thing is all the group is doing is highlighting the fact of farming subs, 90% of the public really dont care how subs are paid, its the fact that subs are paid in the first place, you find lots of comments about how its all a waste of time and thay should be removed, im sorry to say but most jo public cant see the bigger pic of the whole thing, so farming bashing will be the normal, just do a search and u see the many topics on it and how thay end up and it makes no diffrence if your part of the group, but if you are then u might be able to answer some quastions about it, because at the moment all u said is we dont like change, but why dont u like change, why dont u want it to change to the new systerm, whats the reason for the goverment changeing to the new systerm, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shit3hawk Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 the thing is all the group is doing is highlighting the fact of farming subs, 90% of the public really dont care how subs are paid, If your getting my tax dollar you should F**ken well work for it like the rest of us or at least try to work instead of just waiting for handouts, I understand the need for handouts gary but come-on you do really need to earn it and not just expect them FFS. sometimes i think farmers are just scruffy dole cue layabouts with fancy cars and a funny smell, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Yes Manx farms are smaller, but the Isle of Man is small. Not everything should be measured in terms of efficiency and economics - farmland should not just be 'a business unit'. What about biodiversity, compassion towards the animals we eat, and the quality of our environment. I'd pay more tax for that. Erm - firstly why don't you just pay more for your food for that directly. Rather than having the taxman as a middle man? Farmers can and do advertize their compassion and environmental care and hence get a premium on their products as a result. Oh and why should IOM farms be smaller than Lake District, or Welsh farms? Two areas totally distroyed by the agri-farm business - NOT. Your comments about Cambridgeshire blame business when geography has an equal, or maybe even greater, part to play. Efficiency doesn't mean low quality or a lack of care for the environment - quite the opposite it involves having a clear eye on your market and doing all you can to meet their expectations. Rolls Royce has to be just as efficient as Kia. And Chatworth House Farm or whatever are fully aware that they have to maintain their environment in order to charge their premium. Subsidies weaken all these incentives. Agriculture needs reform - to say otherwise is to ignore reality. The attitude of more subisidies please, we are a special case has simply less and less justification as places like New Zealand show ending these practices doesn't produce harm, just change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moghrey Mie Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 They took away subsidies in New Zealand years ago and farming there is more efficient as a result. Farmers don't like change. look at newzealand/subsidies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Not everything should be measured in terms of efficiency and economics - farmland should not just be 'a business unit'. What about biodiversity, compassion towards the animals we eat, and the quality of our environment. I'd pay more tax for that. That's fine. The problem I have is that you want ME to pay more tax for that, too. Subsidies are all well and good to get a nascent business onto its feet, but when there is NO PROSPECT WHATSOEVER of these farms being able to stand on their feet in their current form, then it's time for the industry to restructure. What pisses me off is that farming subsidies seem to be just considered as an inalienable right: I am a farmer, therefore other taxpayers should hand over their money to me. Balls to that. Get efficient, or go out of business. Just like anyone else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triskelion Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 That's fine. The problem I have is that you want ME to pay more tax for that, too. Subsidies are all well and good to get a nascent business onto its feet, but when there is NO PROSPECT WHATSOEVER of these farms being able to stand on their feet in their current form, then it's time for the industry to restructure. What pisses me off is that farming subsidies seem to be just considered as an inalienable right: I am a farmer, therefore other taxpayers should hand over their money to me. Balls to that. Get efficient, or go out of business. Just like anyone else You don't seem to have even the slightest grasp of how the agricultural sector works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 That's fine. The problem I have is that you want ME to pay more tax for that, too. Subsidies are all well and good to get a nascent business onto its feet, but when there is NO PROSPECT WHATSOEVER of these farms being able to stand on their feet in their current form, then it's time for the industry to restructure. What pisses me off is that farming subsidies seem to be just considered as an inalienable right: I am a farmer, therefore other taxpayers should hand over their money to me. Balls to that. Get efficient, or go out of business. Just like anyone else There's only no prospect of them operating viably because of the availability of cheap subsidized imports. Now more than ever we should be supporting these farms, we may need them soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slinkydevil Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 I completely agree. I still don't know where your restaurant is though - can you PM me please because I'm sick of the unidentifiable crap dished up in a lot of places. Turn left onto Route 66 it will take you right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 You don't seem to have even the slightest grasp of how the agricultural sector works. Wow me with your knowledge, then, and explain to me how in fact, these subsidies are just the thing to get these farms operating on their own two feet again. There's only no prospect of them operating viably because of the availability of cheap subsidized imports. Now more than ever we should be supporting these farms, we may need them soon. Almost every Manx resident benefits from these low prices. I don't, on the other hand, remember my cheque for eleven grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix97 Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 It does seem a bit strange that Farmers would be paid not to farm. Does that mean that employees in the Manx Food Supply Industry would also be paid not to process Manx food? Has anyone forecast the number of people out of work due to non livestock farming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 There's only no prospect of them operating viably because of the availability of cheap subsidized imports. Now more than ever we should be supporting these farms, we may need them soon. Slim I think you are incorrect about food being cheap because of subsidies - the food isn't subsidized the farmers are. But because subsidies are inefficient the resulting economic losses are greater than the subisdy. The end result is more expensive food. That is why there is a move away from setting subsidized prices for farmers. Previously in Europe imports were resticted and the CAP set a price for the food which was above world market prices because of this European farmers produced more food than there was demand for, and the result was food mountains etc of unsold food which Europeans didn't want because it was too expensive, but which farmers produced as the prices were so good - ie a gap was created between supply and demand via the subsidy. These food mountains were then dumped into the 3rd world at lower prices which EU citizens were unable to benefit from, but which crippled 3rd world farmers unable to compete with the dumped food. It really is an inequitous system which though part reformed is still massively trade distorting and damaging. Oh and Slim - I have no idea what you mean in your last sentence above - is it meant to be apocalyptic? It does seem a bit strange that Farmers would be paid not to farm. I think you are missing the point as far as I understand it the Manx government will no longer set quotas and prices for farm products. That in my view is a very good thing - as that type of subsidy is the most distorting as I explain above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollag Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Farmers should not be paid public funds for farming, they are businesses not charities. Paying public funds for looking after the countryside that farmers have wrecked is plainly stupid, its danegelt at best. Please can someone explain why i must pay so many times for a manx lamb chop, seriously they are not that good. We live in a market economy, if you cannot compete you fail, as in tourism as in fishing etc. We dont have so much money in the public purse to keep paying farmers for losing money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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