Locked Up For Complaining

[La_Dolce_Vita]

But China is not communist at all, never was.

 

Eh, wasn't Mao Zedong the 1st Chairman of the Communist Party of China? Sounds quite communist to me, just because some strange "anarchic" types don't think that's communist it doesn't actually change history.

 

Well look up what communism is then if you think it is just me. It is not about changing history, it is about recognising what the Soviet Union, China, North Korea were and are. They are not communist states because their societies are not classless and egalitarian, but they were supposed to become communist.

China was a socialist state for a while but became state capitalist but certainly today.

All I am saying is that it is incorrect to perceive China as being a communist.

[Chinahand]

Oh god can I resist - does LDV, or anyone else for that matter, know anything about the Mao-Soviet split, the Yan'an debates about how communism should develop in China (if you've a historical bent and wish to analyse how communist ideas developed in peasant rural economies this stuff is actually quite interesting - Mao's speeches on Contradictions among the People are definitely worth a few evenings of your time).

 

And then there is how all this influenced world communist movements - ever heard of the Shining Path, or the Maoist guerrillas of Nepal. Has anyone else ever attempted to read modern Chinese Communist Party documents attempting to create a synthesis of Marx-Lenin-Mao-Deng-Jiang-Hu. Its massively turgid political analysis - I love it when one group attempts to claim to be the true followers and carriers of the light.

 

LDV I suppose will go on naming angels on pin heads and trying to distinguish communists from radical anarchists from Trotskeyites from Maoists etc etc etc. As he can't explain what any of these ideas actually are or how to realize their ideas in reality it seems a pretty pointless debate.

 

That said LDV does sum it up pretty well - China is most especially a paternalist system - it is controlled by a group that believes it knows best and if you disagree with it it is going to surpress you. A tiny minority has the power to control the state and will not release it.

 

One point though is that the government/CCP isn't actually that powerful in China proportionally the UK or even the US governments are vastly more powerful and are able to utilize resources far more efficiently - the CCP used coercion to gain and maintain its dominant position, but other than force its ability to control is relatively weak - that is what makes it so dangerous. It has very little ability to influence events and if there is an organized movement against them or mass unemployment - it has to find 20 million jobs a year to stop mass youth unemployment - it could turn very nasty indeed.

 

China is still very poor - Albania is richer per capita - and has truly huge development problems to overcome. It could all go very wrong with huge violence. I know many Chinese who value social stability more than liberty and if given a choice between the CCP and social unrest choose the CCP.

 

I worry that ultimately the CCP is a cause of social tensions as it simply doesn't have the systems to reduce political pressures as society becomes more complex.

 

Locking people in mental institutions and sending them to be reeducated through labour isn't sustainable, but is about all the security aparatus can do - other than shoot people as it did in 1989.

 

If the slowdown in China is a severe as it is begining to look - well shit it'll be an interesting recession - the biggest contributor to world growth over the last 10 years could go up in smoke. That'd have echoes that would be heard around the world.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Oh god can I resist - does LDV, or anyone else for that matter, know anything about the Mao-Soviet split, the Yan'an debates about how communism should develop in China (if you've a historical bent and wish to analyse how communist ideas developed in peasant rural economies this stuff is actually quite interesting - Mao's speeches on Contradictions among the People are definitely worth a few evenings of your time).

 

Hmm, not read any of Mao's speeches, may do so. Would like to read more into Maoism, I do find what is going on in Nepal to be very interesting.

 

LDV I suppose will go on naming angels on pin heads and trying to distinguish communists from radical anarchists from Trotskeyites from Maoists etc etc etc. As he can't explain what any of these ideas actually are or how to realize their ideas in reality it seems a pretty pointless debate.

 

It isn't about that and I do not need to explain the differences between branches of socialism. I wanted to briefly point to the fact that communism is a classless society and does not have a massive state running everything, quite the opposite, there is no state. China was therefore never communist but is called that because communists are in control. But really all I wanted to point out that TODAY China is certainly not communist, nor even the socialist state it once was. It is capitalism but with a more powerful and large government.

 

...the government/CCP isn't actually that powerful in China proportionally the UK or even the US governments are vastly more powerful and are able to utilize resources far more efficiently - the CCP used coercion to gain and maintain its dominant position, but other than force its ability to control is relatively weak - that is what makes it so dangerous. It has very little ability to influence events and if there is an organized movement against them or mass unemployment - it has to find 20 million jobs a year to stop mass youth unemployment - it could turn very nasty indeed.

 

I suppose it is a question of whether the military and police are loyal to their masters, the government.

 

I worry that ultimately the CCP is a cause of social tensions as it simply doesn't have the systems to reduce political pressures as society becomes more complex.

 

What social tensions do you refer to? Would you know Chinahand, has social inequality (income inequality) improved over the decades or got worse?

 

It is such a shame that China is the way it is. I need to go, I find Chinese culture and history to be fascinating

[Jack Meoff]

LDV, so what your saying is that countries that we all view as Communist are not really communist and that even with true Anarchy there is some order..

 

or have i just paradoxically completely lost the plot on this one..?

[Chinahand]

I worry that ultimately the CCP is a cause of social tensions as it simply doesn't have the systems to reduce political pressures as society becomes more complex.

 

What social tensions do you refer to? Would you know Chinahand, has social inequality (income inequality) improved over the decades or got worse?

 

It is such a shame that China is the way it is. I need to go, I find Chinese culture and history to be fascinating

Social tensions have increased massively in recent years as some people have had opportunities to enrich themselves at other's expense. The legal system, political represention etc are all seriously flawed and subject to abuse - the Communist Party destroyed these institutions in the 60s and 70s and all that is left is cronyism and partonage - this was then unleased in a get rich quick society. The result is almost feral.

 

But it is very very complex - Professor Randy Peernboom very much defends China - compared to most other countries at its development level educational, health, and sanitation standards are good. The material well being in the lives of the vast majority of China's population has improved vastly in the last 20 years - BUT some have gained vastly more than others.

 

The current government is very very aware of this and attempting to bring in social policies, but simply this is difficult when you are comparing a peasant in Guanxi to a labourer in Beijing to a banker in Shanghai - its like trying to look at conditions in Algers, Belerus and London.

 

Its a third world country with first world enclaves - vast inequalities, a distorted political system which has used, and still will use, violence to get its way.

 

Land disputes are massively contentious as it is the only social security peasants have - the right to grow your own food! But with development a priority the government is quite happy to take this land off them and give it to developers, especially when they've been bribed to do it.

 

Its a raw place - what will happen to it in the next 50 years god knows, but it'll affect the rest of the world, no doubt about that.

[jimbms]

LDV, so what your saying is that countries that we all view as Communist are not really communist and that even with true Anarchy there is some order..

 

or have i just paradoxically completely lost the plot on this one..?

If you have lost it I think 95% of us also have

[Jack Meoff]

I will have to either:

 

1. Take highly illegal substances

2. spend hundreds of pounds and man hours reading books

3. go down my local in Laxey, have a pint and a packet of crisps.

 

To understand Anarchy

[jimbms]

I will have to either:

 

1. Take highly illegal substances

2. spend hundreds of pounds and man hours reading books

3. go down my local in Laxey, have a pint and a packet of crisps.

 

To understand Anarchy

If its a choice then I drop 2 and go with 1 and 3

[La_Dolce_Vita]

LDV, so what your saying is that countries that we all view as Communist are not really communist and that even with true Anarchy there is some order..

 

or have i just paradoxically completely lost the plot on this one..?

 

By all means read up on Marxism if you are sceptical. These states (Soviet Union, China) could have been called socialist at points through their existence. But a communist society would look nothing like that of those countries. They were and are termed communist because the communist party controls and runs the country. It was supposed to be their responsibility to lead the nation to communism.

 

Anarchy can mean chaos (I suppose this term grew from the erroneuous belief that no government means chaos). But anarchism is very much about order.

[Jack Meoff]

Ok LDV, I am going to give you a final lifeline.. Please explain to me how you are an anarchist.

 

WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU DO THAT PROMOTES ANARCHY? as in true chaos, unadulterated chaooooooooooooooooooooooooos

 

 

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Ok LDV, I am going to give you a final lifeline.. Please explain to me how you are an anarchist.

 

WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU DO THAT PROMOTES ANARCHY? as in true chaos, unadulterated chaooooooooooooooooooooooooos

 

 

 

Direct action and promoting it by talking about it.

 

Please, please stop confusing anarchy with anarchism.

[Jack Meoff]

Is Anarchism not the plural for Anarchy...?

 

 

Anarchism is the political belief that society should have no government, laws, police, or other authority

 

as I said true Anarchy...............................

 

Anarchy (from Greek: αναρχία anarchía, "without ruler") may refer to any of the following:

 

"Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder."[1]

"A theoretical social state in which there is no governing person or body of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder)."[2]

"Absence or non-recognition of authority and order in any given sphere."[3]

Without government or law

A society free from coercive authority of any kind is the goal of proponents of the political philosophy of anarchism (anarchists).

 

 

You see LDV we all have access to Wikipedia etc

 

so please stop being enigmatic about your actions to promote "True Anarchy"

 

Explain how you are going to help achieve, chaoticness that would really mean the destruction of society as we all know.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Explain how you are going to help achieve, chaoticness that would really mean the destruction of society as we all know.

 

Jack Meoff, if you have wikipedia then make good use of it, I can hardly answer your question when such a question rests on a false assumption, i.e. this chaos issue you are talking about.