alibaba Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm Ace. I was arguing with some people the other day about Israeli influence in the setting up of Hamas and there it is!! that was given some encouragement by Israel earlier in the decade, as a means of countering the influence of the PLO, This is what happens when governments or groups with power and influence really really believe they're right - they start doing things which are wrong (and a bit stupid) to further their cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 As ever I feel the need to give a preamble about my support for the existence of Israel, its right to defend itself and of its desire to live peacefully with its neighbours. Now I've done that I just have to ask how Israel thinks massive bombardment of civillian areas is going to stop radicalization and recruitment into militant organizations. The technology Hamas employs to attack Israel is so simple it is just not possible to stop them deploying it. The only way it can be stopped is through there being a willingness to stop on the part of those firing them - and I can see no such willingness resulting from the current campaign. Israel's attitude seems to be if the can squeeze the inhabitants of Gaza into an ever smaller and smaller box their attempts to kick out at being crushed will stop. I just cannot see it happening. I think 9 Israelis have been killed in rocket attacks from Gaza over the last 10 years. Even if those figures aren't exactly right they are representative - I'll be happy to be corrected - and they show just how disproportional the IDF response is. And the fact that the US etc just sits on its hands and lets it carry on just reinforces Arab anger that it is one rule for Israel and the West and another one when the victims are Muslims. I suppose Rog will say it is vital to teach the Gazan civillian population the consequences of its support for Hamas, and that the current campaign will destroy support for the organization. I just don't see that strategy achieving much - Israel has behaved like this for generations in Gaza - whether under a PLO or a Hamas government - or under an Israeli occupation force. The Gazans won't associate the consequences with Hamas, but with typical Israeli indifference to civillian deaths. Gazas population is incredibly young - 44% are under 15 - these kids have known nothing but oppression and death from the sky or from a tank shell. They've been raised to hate Israel and see it as the cause of all their woes - each year there are thousands of new young radicals being brought forward. These kids won't be put off by the current violence - I think it will basically just encourage them. Why is the West Bank different from Gaza - because there are opportunities to see a way forward without resorting to violence - until that is possible for the people of Gaza the rockets will keep coming no matter how ineffective they are and no matter how violently Israel responds. And I do not believe Israel's actions will change this one dot - in fact just the opposite - it will increase radicalization. A while ago I can remember Israeli leaders telling the west they would not sacrifice their security for western appeasment. Well and good rhetoric, but Israeli actions are now sacrificing UK security as the risk that radicals will lash out in the UK is increasing due to Israels actions. I do not believe that this bloody little war is increasing Israel's security - quite the opposite, and it is feeding radicalization throughout the world. I just hope Obama is more engaged in looking for a solution than Bush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I hesitate to put this analysis up as it is morbid in the extreme, but the figures from the UN about casualty numbers may not be quite as horrific as they seem. Gaza's population profile is 44.7% under 15 28.0% male 15 and over. The deaths reported by the UN are 33.9% children - ages undefined 58.7% not children, not women - ie male adults. To me that shows that deaths are predominantly drawn from the demographic group you'd expect - adult men in a proportion over twice the rate you'd expect from their proportion of the population - the other demographic groups are being affected less than you'd expect based on their proportion of the population. It IS absolutely tragic that so many children are dying and I fully agree that many of them are total innocents - but I wonder how many of these are teenage boys who have been drawn into the conflict. My post above shows I partly blame Israel for that - but Hamas also has a responsibility. Any urban war is nasty, but I am not convinced that Israel is deliberately targetting civillians - it is just indifferent to their deaths in achieving what it sees as its legitimate war aims. I think those war aims are fruitless, but I'm not YET convinced Israel is commiting war crimes - but some reports are close to it - I'll wait for objective reports once the smoke clears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 [quote Why is the West Bank different from Gaza - because there are opportunities to see a way forward without resorting to violence - until that is possible for the people of Gaza the rockets will keep coming no matter how ineffective they are and no matter how violently Israel responds. I did not understand the point you made. What opportunities do you think are present in the West Bank that are not with Gaza? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I don't want to get over optimistic, and I can hear the snorts already over who is hailing the progress in the second link, but the West Bank is doing better, and is alot more peaceful than Gaza. Link 1 Link 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I hesitate to put this analysis up as it is morbid in the extreme, but the figures from the UN about casualty numbers may not be quite as horrific as they seem. Gaza's population profile is 44.7% under 15 28.0% male 15 and over. The deaths reported by the UN are 33.9% children - ages undefined 58.7% not children, not women - ie male adults. To me that shows that deaths are predominantly drawn from the demographic group you'd expect - adult men in a proportion over twice the rate you'd expect from their proportion of the population - the other demographic groups are being affected less than you'd expect based on their proportion of the population. It IS absolutely tragic that so many children are dying and I fully agree that many of them are total innocents - but I wonder how many of these are teenage boys who have been drawn into the conflict. My post above shows I partly blame Israel for that - but Hamas also has a responsibility. Any urban war is nasty, but I am not convinced that Israel is deliberately targetting civillians - it is just indifferent to their deaths in achieving what it sees as its legitimate war aims. I think those war aims are fruitless, but I'm not YET convinced Israel is commiting war crimes - but some reports are close to it - I'll wait for objective reports once the smoke clears. Phew, well that's ok then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hboy Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 but the West Bank is doing better, and is alot more peaceful than Gaza. More peacful than Gazza - that cheeky Geordie pisshead is causing a real global catastrophy isn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alibaba Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Cool posts before Chinahand. I just hope Obama is more engaged in looking for a solution than Bush. Sadly this doesn't look too likely if his Vice President is to be believed (from the debate with Palin early October) “Gwen, no one in the United States Senate has been a better friend to Israel than Joe Biden. I would have never, ever joined this ticket were I not absolutely sure Barack Obama shared my passion.” Change we can believe in!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Phew, well that's ok then. No - but it puts what is happening in some sort of context - 58.7% of casualties are adult males - they make up 28.0% of the population. Without context its difficult to interpret the bald statistics. I am in no way diminishing innocent deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Phew, well that's ok then. No - but it puts what is happening in some sort of context - 58.7% of casualties are adult males - they make up 28.0% of the population. Without context its difficult to interpret the bald statistics. I am in no way diminishing innocent deaths. I found this perspective from Australia (written by academics of Jewish descent) interesting and my viewpoint is pretty much as stated in this article. http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2462391.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Thanks for the article Twitch - Jimmy Carter also is perceptive - and discusses the practical matters to hopefully bring about a settlement. The Christian Bible says: Blessed are the peace makers - Carter has dedicated his life to peace making; he has an moral authority which dwarfs that of someone who will soon also bear the title former POTUS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 No - but it puts what is happening in some sort of context - 58.7% of casualties are adult males - they make up 28.0% of the population. Without context its difficult to interpret the bald statistics. I am in no way diminishing innocent deaths. I'm not so sure that the deaths of the adult males are all that innocent. The difference between a civilian non-combatant and a Hamas "fighter" turning up in the morgue is zero. The point is that Israel didn't have to deploy ground troops to bomb the Hamas infrastructure into the ground. They had to deploy them to draw out and take on the so-called "fighters". They didn't have to and believe me they didn't want to - because it makes Israeli casualties inevitable. But they have... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Oh religion what a hateful thing you are - [F]ormer Sephardi chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu has written in a letter to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. Eliyahu ruled that there was absolutely no moral prohibition against the indiscriminate killing of civilians during a potential massive military offensive on Gaza aimed at stopping the rocket launchings. According to Jewish war ethics, wrote Eliyahu, an entire city holds collective responsibility for the immoral behavior of individuals. Eliyahu could not be reached for an interview. However, Eliyahu's son, Shmuel Eliyahu, who is chief rabbi of Safed, said his father opposed a ground troop incursion into Gaza that would endanger IDF soldiers. Rather, he advocated carpet bombing the general area from which the Kassams were launched, regardless of the price in Palestinian life. "If they don't stop after we kill 100, then we must kill a thousand," said Shmuel Eliyahu. "And if they do not stop after 1,000 then we must kill 10,000. If they still don't stop we must kill 100,000, even a million. Whatever it takes to make them stop." Clicky for more details using religion (and especially Genesis 34) to justify massacres and collective punishment. Wonder if Rog will jump in and defend this babarity. At at risk of been Godwin'ed are there not parallels to the Holocaust in claiming justification to kill a million people for rockets which have killed less than 20 people in 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alibaba Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 So Israel (or certain Israelis) think that it's ok to bomb civilians. Great. One of the arguments given by Hamas for their apparently 'indiscriminate' rocket attacks on civilian areas is that as all Israelis take part in National Service they are all soldiers in this war and are therefore legitimate targets. Some people are truly insane. Have a skeet at this video. It can't possibly be real... can it? Can people really think like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Poe's law - I'm pretty certain its genuine, but its impossible to say - its the way the woman raises her hand and makes a "little bitty" sign with her thumb and finger while she says: "I think that is the only solution, I think they should just clear off all the city, just take it off the ground. Yes I'm a little bit fascist." Just a little bit fascist desiring the complete destruction of a city containing millions of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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