Sometimes Jail Is Not Enough

[Sebrof]

By an amazing coincidence most of this lot are black as well!

 

So, do we have a justice system based on rehabilitation or a system based on retribution and revenge?

 

Serious question.

 

I seem to recall that a few years ago "rehabilitation" was dropped from the objectives of the UK prison service. Too expensive, I suppose.

 

In my view, rehabilitation should be the primary objective.

 

S

[Albert Tatlock]

By an amazing coincidence most of this lot are black as well!

Nearly 40% of black men are on the UK's DNA database - along with 13% of Asian men and 9% of white men (2007).

[Chinahand]

1. By an amazing coincidence most of this lot are black as well!

 

2. By an amazing coincidence most of this lot have been brought up in poverty and through social care.

 

Which is more a relevent statement 1. or 2.?

 

Race is such an easy signifier, but more usually you'll find it is a poor proxy - people brought up in destitution can behave in the most uncivilized ways. That holds true whether they are white or black.

[P.K.]

1. By an amazing coincidence most of this lot are black as well!

2. By an amazing coincidence most of this lot have been brought up in poverty and through social care.

 

Which is more a relevent statement 1. or 2.?

 

Race is such an easy signifier, but more usually you'll find it is a poor proxy - people brought up in destitution can behave in the most uncivilized ways. That holds true whether they are white or black.

So if you are raised in a less well off household you're going to be a murdering, drug dealing, torturing, depraved rapist are you?

 

So is it also just an amazing coincidence that 40% of black men are on the DNA register?

 

"Which is more a relevent statement 1. or 2.?" - relevant to what exactly Mr Chinahand?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

You seem to have an inability to concieve of a community bigger than a village where everyone has to be involved in every decision (villages like this existed in cultural revolution China - they were horrible places - wasteful, subject to mob violence and massively destructive to individual effort. You seem incapable of seeing that people will make a rational choice to allow others to make many of these decisions for them, freeing them up to do other things. Democracy is what allows that trust to be created freeing people up to make more of their lives.

 

I have never referred to any system where the community HAVE to be involved in decisionmaking. I am not sure where you getting the village idea from. I am capable of understanding the propaganda that the people of a liberal democracy have made the decision to allow the state to enforce and control crime. But people have never had any choice on the matter. I wiould argue that the general public are actually interested in politics and are actually interested in having a say in what is going on in society but have to ability to participate effectively.

 

LDV - as ever you are missing the point - you are being asked HOW. HOW will the "revolution" (whatever that means) end sexual repression allowing it to disappear, how will "it" eradicate sexism.

 

This is what I mentioned in my previous post as I not convinced that sexual repression can be removed by ending class domination. I tend to think that racism, homophobia, and sexism for example are issues that are not part part and parcel of class domination. It seems to make obvious sense that a society without oppression and hierarchical structures would be one without sexual repression. But I don't agree with those who think it is something that will just somehow disappear, but I need to understand more about how they think it will.

 

Until you can start to say HOW you will remain open to ridicule and dismissal.

Proudly saying your an anarchist is just a meaningless statement that you don't want to be involved in this society without providing any practical alternative - its just an empty statement, signifying nothing, and full of pie in the sky.

 

I can say much on what I think is the alternative. But one of the most problematic areas, which I feel is left needing more clear-cut answers is the issue crime in relation to rape, paedophilia, and murder.

[Chinahand]

So if you are raised in a less well off household you're going to be a murdering, drug dealing, torturing, depraved rapist are you?

Its a sad fact that it is far more common yes - when white people do it you tend to call them chavs if I remember correctly P.K.

So is it also just an amazing coincidence that 40% of black men are on the DNA register?

 

"Which is more a relevent statement 1. or 2.?" - relevant to what exactly Mr Chinahand?

Coincidence no, not at all - explainable by socio-economic factors more than race yes. We've debated this many times before - race is a proxy for other things - ie poverty, intervention of welfare services, family breakdown etc. If you want to be sloppy you can just say its cos they are black, but that is basically lazy thinking - its the underlying factors which are the issue not the colour of their skin.

 

What's the relevence - the state should introduce policies which target depravation and not race - I would have thought you'd be in favour of that P.K.

 

Doing that the policies may involve black communities more than white ones, but only as a consequence of the higher levels of destitution within the black community.

[Albert Tatlock]

Coincidence no, not at all - explainable by socio-economic factors more than race yes. We've debated this many times before - race is a proxy for other things - ie poverty, intervention of welfare services, family breakdown etc. If you want to be sloppy you can just say its cos they are black, but that is basically lazy thinking - its the underlying factors which are the issue not the colour of their skin.

 

What's the relevence - the state should introduce policies which target depravation and not race - I would have thought you'd be in favour of that P.K.

 

Doing that the policies may involve black communities more than white ones, but only as a consequence of the higher levels of destitution within the black community.

So are you saying it is all little to do with racism in the UK police force?

[Chinahand]

I would have thought that socio-economic factors include the social attitudes of the UK police force etc.

 

Edited to make what I'm saying stronger - of course racial attitudes affect the life consequences of someone who's black or whatever - but I firmly believe those racial attitudes are very little to do with whether the person has a gene which pigments their skin a particular colour and far more to do with the biases created by reaction to that skin colour - and the cultural baggage connected with it - which is a two way street I admit.

[Albert Tatlock]

I would have thought that socio-economic factors include the social attitudes of the UK police force etc.

Well duh - because 'socio' means to do with society, and 'economic' to do with the economy - and everyone with or without a job, without a decent mother or father, regardless of the colour they happen to be in the country is a product of these.

 

That's like you saying science is the science of er...science.

[P.K.]

Actually I see it as a self-fulfilling prophecy. Black communities complained about the "suss" laws because far more blacks were being stopped and searched than whites. But if you are PC Plod you know you are far more likely to get a result stopping a black man than a white one. It's not actually racist, it's just playing the odds to your advantage.

 

"What's the relevence - the state should introduce policies which target depravation and not race."

 

How very noble to target deprivation. However at the same time you would be targetting race because we do have ghettos communities based along strictly ethnical lines. But I do not believe the indigenous population created them but rather they created themselves. And not only do we have them but having them also means there is less of a requirement for those living in these ghettos communities to integrate.

 

Incidentally depraved = morally corrupt - deprived = lacking basic material and cultural assets. Not one you want to get wrong on this thread...

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Actually I see it as a self-fulfilling prophecy. Black communities complained about the "suss" laws because far more blacks were being stopped and searched than whites. But if you are PC Plod you know you are far more likely to get a result stopping a black man than a white one. It's not actually racist, it's just playing the odds to your advantage.

 

It is actually racist though because who you stop and search becomes determined by what colour of skin they have. If colour of skin is a determining factor then it is obviously racist regardless of the increased odds.

[Lonan3]

Perhaps we should go for really severe punishment - like forcing them to read the works of William Batchelder Greene, Mikhail Bakunin, Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, Murray Bookchin* and Peter Kropotkin.

Then make them write a thesis on how the ideas expressed in the books could be made practical (Since that is clearly impossible, it would be a life sentence and the chances are that most of them would be on suicide watch after making their way through 1 or 2 volumes!)

 

*The early works - before he rejected anarchism.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Perhaps we should go for really severe punishment - like forcing them to read the works of William Batchelder Greene, Mikhail Bakunin, Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, Murray Bookchin* and Peter Kropotkin.

Then make them write a thesis on how the ideas expressed in the books could be made practical (Since that is clearly impossible, it would be a life sentence and the chances are that most of them would be on suicide watch after making their way through 1 or 2 volumes!)

 

*The early works - before he rejected anarchism.

 

William Batchelder Greene? Now I haven't heard of him. Will have to look him up...

I think they will prove to be very interesting reads. I'm all up for it!

[P.K.]

It is actually racist though because who you stop and search becomes determined by what colour of skin they have. If colour of skin is a determining factor then it is obviously racist regardless of the increased odds.

It's actually results orientated so you can't say "regardless of the increased odds". Well, obviously you can say it but it's wrong.

[Sebrof]

Perhaps we should go for really severe punishment - like forcing them to read the works of William Batchelder Greene, Mikhail Bakunin, Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, Murray Bookchin* and Peter Kropotkin.

Then make them write a thesis on how the ideas expressed in the books could be made practical (Since that is clearly impossible, it would be a life sentence and the chances are that most of them would be on suicide watch after making their way through 1 or 2 volumes!)

 

*The early works - before he rejected anarchism.

 

William Batchelder Greene? Now I haven't heard of him. Will have to look him up...

I think they will prove to be very interesting reads. I'm all up for it!

 

LDV, had you thought of developing an interest in science fiction? It's pure fantasy, just like your normal reading, but you won't have to keep justifying your weird beliefs on this forum.

 

S