Change? What Change?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

well just think, in this harsh times of work and jobs, least its keeping a few ppl in work, so cant be all bad, theres allways an up to a down

 

Maybe that is the answer. Pressure the Isle of Man to declare war on the Seychelles.

 

well thats allways an option if we had an armed force

 

Oh yes, you are right. I mean you could them trained and sent over on the Ben My Chree. Fantasising a bit methinks.

[gazza]

well just think, in this harsh times of work and jobs, least its keeping a few ppl in work, so cant be all bad, theres allways an up to a down

 

Maybe that is the answer. Pressure the Isle of Man to declare war on the Seychelles.

 

well thats allways an option if we had an armed force

 

Oh yes, you are right. I mean you could them trained and sent over on the Ben My Chree. Fantasising a bit methinks.

 

well you are Fantasising if u think the ben would be able to take them, it cost a bomb to get there!!,

 

but it is keeping ppl in work all over the world

[La_Dolce_Vita]

well you are Fantasising if u think the ben would be able to take them, it cost a bomb to get there!!,

 

but it is keeping ppl in work all over the world

 

I thought you were joking! Are you really serious about the good that comes out of having people employed in the services during this financial crisis. It is not good in any way to have people employed in the armed forces, certainly not to have them conduct war. It is the same as saying that you should thousands employed in the civil service, except their main job is to carry out the dirty work on behalf of the state and business. I don't see that as good.

[gazza]

well you are Fantasising if u think the ben would be able to take them, it cost a bomb to get there!!,

 

but it is keeping ppl in work all over the world

 

I thought you were joking! Are you really serious about the good that comes out of having people employed in the services during this financial crisis. It is not good in any way to have people employed in the armed forces, certainly not to have them conduct war. It is the same as saying that you should thousands employed in the civil service, except their main job is to carry out the dirty work on behalf of the state and business. I don't see that as good.

 

now the way i look at it is,

there will allways be wars, allways an arms production allways an armed force, now while them going to war and things aint gd,

u have to look past that bit and try and take some of the gd bits out of a bad stuiation,

so theres one gd point, secound one could be it that its helpped improved are way of liveing, things inveted for war have been used to aid our lifes,( while a tank could be handy i dont mean that)

 

and last one i can think off is pushers the price of food up, which helps all the farmers,

 

what everway u look at things there is allways gd and bad in something,

i pick to look at the good, not at the bad

[Bananaman]

3 and 4. Well it benefits the US government and others governments to stop the poppy production. But that was not soldier was began fighting there. It is simply that they are there that the US can conduct its hypocritical war on drugs in Afghanistan. But as for some sort of benevolent presence and goal in making Afghanistan a liberal state, well that is quite ridiculous. The US government could not give two shits what happens to Afghans. All they care about is to get a friendly government set-up in the area, the more compliant the better.

 

I know you troll for the sake of it and therefore you're not really worthy of a reply off any one. But I have taken your bait. Do you honestly believe that the Taliban and their way of thinking should be allowed to flourish in this day and age? Throwing acid on to school girls faces because they were going to school?

 

Beheading village leaders and their families (I hasten to add in front of the village population,as a warning) for allowing Schools to be built in their villages?

 

Executing village members for having 'Western hairstyles'

 

Shutting down schools http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7861053.stm

 

Girls aren't allowed education as it is deemed un-islamic?

 

 

Don't you dare bleat about that's their way of life - that will show me how hypocritical you are.

 

You're not an idiot I know that, you're a wind up merchant but by christ fella you've got my goat up about what is going on in Afghanistan mate.

 

You know fuck all! I don't either but I do know why our soldiers are there. One day you might too.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I comment on threads that I feel strongly about. I will argue with those whose views I disagree with, often in respect of views that irritate me. My views are socialist, I have a fundamentally different understanding of such things as the government and the military. Because my views no longer conform to a narrow bandwidth of political opinion between conservatism and liberalism does not mean my views are any less valid.

 

Your humanitarian perspectives of the military amounts to little more than New Labour spin.

I can see your ignorance of my politics when you ask me not to defend the Taliban's actions because it is representative of another culture's way of life. To be honest, I don't actually know how you arrive at that presumption, even if I was trolling.

 

I do not think that because an oppressive regime has gone, that all of a sudden it is justified conflict and becomes the reason for the conflict. It's like the selectivity of those who talk about Saddam being toppled justifying why troops are there and the war, when it was not even a war aim and involved many civilian deaths.

 

The US and British has supported states who harshly repress their own people. The US and British government would prefer to have contacts with governments who have a firm hold on their people. a more free sociey would lead to less US control over the people of that nation. They don't want people interfering with the conduct of business.

 

You can look at it the other way and ask why the US is not in many African nations (including Zimbabwe) or is not putting pressure on China in respect of Tibet or Israel in its behaviour in Gaza. And most importantly, why the US has such close relations with the Saudi regime which is a repressive, fundamentalist regime. The Saudi regime may not be as barbaric as the Taliban but does it take horrifying behaviour to warrant intervention?

 

The campaign at the beginning of the war is NOT the same as that today. And I am not disputing the position that AT PRESENT the campaigning is for the purpose of keeping the Taliban from power and protecting the puppet government.

 

But this has nothing to do with caring for Afghans. And are you nuts enough to think that the military went to Afghan because the US and British governments care for the Afghans at the hands of the Taliban. That is crazy.

 

Do you really think that seven years of bombing is caring? Can you at least appreciate the impact that this has had on Afghans who have nothing to do with Taliban or Al Qaeda yet who are living in a war zone. How many civilians have been killed just for the sake of keeping out the Taliban and Al Qaeda? The invading military forces have done deeds just as bad as the Taliban in allowing so much hardship and so many civilian casualties to occur due to bombing, and I believe that 100%.

 

Even if I took your angle on things maybe an analogy would be good, if the Taliban controlled the Isle of Man, what if the UK conducted a long campaign of bombing which would involve hundreds of civilian deaths just for the sake of removing them and keeping them out of power. How would you feel about things if your parents, wife, or children were torn to shreds by a bomb dropped from far above their heads? Or crushed to death in the rubble of your own home? I would at the least think that you would say the UK Government didn't care too much about them.

 

(I'm sorry I know I promised not to write epic posts, but that comment on trolling cheesed me off)

[MilitantDogOwner]

Oh wait, do we need to call in a squaddie to give the lowdown on how the shit is going down in Afghanistan?

It is already a massive waste of manpower as the war is still continuing.

 

Points 1 and 2, I completely agree with. They were the original reasons for the campaigning. But once most of Al Qaeda the purpose is just get A result. AL Qaeda is fractured but not destroyed, the Taliban a stated enemy are still fighting. The US government wants to demonstrate results.

 

3 and 4. Well it benefits the US government and others governments to stop the poppy production. But that was not soldier was began fighting there. It is simply that they are there that the US can conduct its hypocritical war on drugs in Afghanistan. But as for some sort of benevolent presence and goal in making Afghanistan a liberal state, well that is quite ridiculous. The US government could not give two shits what happens to Afghans. All they care about is to get a friendly government set-up in the area, the more compliant the better.

 

Oh wait, do we need to call in a nobody who has never been to Afganistan, spoken to Afgan tribesmen, see the Talibans handywork and fought the Taliban so that people can lead normal lives and not the dark ages like their overlords want them to, to give us the low down on what he has read in the newspapers, google and a few books.

 

The "war on drugs" has nothing to do with getting rid of the poppie fields. The Taliban and as a result Al'Queda are funded by the sale of the opium poppy. The farmers have no choice in the matter. Its "grow our poppies or off comes your head for supporting the infidel". By removing the Talibans influence, farmers can then be free to grow food stocks that will in turn lead to prosperity for the Afgan people.

 

I do wonder if you live in a bunker somewhere with the walls covered in conspiracy nonsense looking for the Illuminati.

[MilitantDogOwner]

LDV:

 

"Your humanitarian perspectives of the military amounts to little more than New Labour spin."

 

Right I'm going to use of the experience and first hand knowledge LDV, not something I read in a book or a newspaper so this might confuse you a bit.

 

I have personally, this is in real life, with my own hands, helped rebuild bridges destroyed by the Taliban, dug wells and irrigation channels to help the Afgan farmers grow their food crops, I've provide medical assistance to the old and the weak and helped build schools.

 

But I have also taken the fight to the Taliban and fought him hard.

 

The people who are in the Armed Forces are not automated killing machines brought up violent movies and video games to be totally desensitised to the violence. Yes we are in the business of war but we are also a force of humanitarian good.

 

Many of the Afgan people I spoke to were glad to see the back of the Taliban. The fighters of the insurgancy are the hard core Islamic fundementalist who want to keep the populace in the dark ages and foreign fighters from Iran and Pakistan who are there to help the local fighters keep the status quo.

 

This is not spin. This is hard, cold fact. Stick that up on your conspiracy wall.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I am completely aware of the use of the military to undertake exercises to build trust with the local community and that can and does involve economic projects. The provision of medicine again serves the same purpose. Can the US and British forces really risk having a population that is totally opposed to their presence by seeing how their motives are utterly selfish? No, you have to get the community on your side so that they don't start fighting against the occupation force. And good relations benefit the occupying force. It is very much a marker of counter-insurgency, and a British one at that.

 

It wouldn't matter if you were Tony Blair or David Richards. The fact that you were there in Afghanistan can at most mean that you have an experience first hand and on the ground. Doesn't have any significance relating to strategy, war aims, foreign policy, reasons behind British tactics.

 

 

...but we are also a force of humanitarian good.

 

Many of the Afgan people I spoke to were glad to see the back of the Taliban.

 

This is not spin. This is hard, cold fact. Stick that up on your conspiracy wall.

 

But to talk about humanitarian good really riles me. It is simply rubbish. In a very limited and selective way I suppose you can look at the efforts of the army on the ground to fix things and say building bridges is humanitarian. More precisely, it is simply that, it is building bridges and maintaining the viability of the economy.

 

Of course the Afghan people were happy to see the back of the Taliban. This isn't the point. The US and Britain would not even be in Afghanistan if Al Qaeda never had a presence.

 

But to say that the armed forces are there for humanitarian good astounds at the level of ignorance. The war aims were related to Al Qaeda, not some goodwill mission. As mentioned previously, Britain and the US have already caused another strife and problems in the world, are they suddently going to look at Afghanistan and have a change of heart?

 

Besides how can anyone talk about humanitarianism when the war has involved the deaths of civilians to the extent it has? It is almost laughable if it weren't for the fact that it has involved deaths. Maybe some people are getting medicine and the army is helping to rebuild. Well this is wonderful. Smash the country to smithereens with bombs, get rid of the Taliban regardless of the fact that thousands of civilians have died, but if Britain helps the economy and people get back on their feet we talk about it being humanitarian. It just isn't even worth considering for a moment given the facts.

 

CONSPIRACY? What are you talking about? This isn't about conspiracy! It is just dispelling the propaganda line that surrounds people's understanding of the purpose of British foreign policy and all the bollocks about humanitarianism. Has nothing to do with conspiracy but is simply looking at the facts.

[MilitantDogOwner]

Doesn't have any significance relating to strategy, war aims, foreign policy, reasons behind British tactics.

 

Alright then oh learned one. Where does your vast and seemingly unlimited knowledge of all things military, tactrics, policy and war aims come from? Google, the Daily Wail?

 

...but we are also a force of humanitarian good.

 

Many of the Afgan people I spoke to were glad to see the back of the Taliban.

 

This is not spin. This is hard, cold fact. Stick that up on your conspiracy wall.

 

But to talk about humanitarian good really riles me. It is simply rubbish. In a very limited and selective way I suppose you can look at the efforts of the army on the ground to fix things and say building bridges is humanitarian. More precisely, it is simply that, it is building bridges and maintaining the viability of the economy.

 

Its not just about helping the LOCAL economy, you blithering idiot. Its also a quality of life issue. The people now have safe and clean drinking water and will have better crop growth. The children can now start going to school and learn for a better future and not worry about being executed for knowing what a fraction is.

 

Of course the Afghan people were happy to see the back of the Taliban. This isn't the point. The US and Britain would not even be in Afghanistan if Al Qaeda never had a presence.

 

But to say that the armed forces are there for humanitarian good astounds at the level of ignorance. The war aims were related to Al Qaeda, not some goodwill mission. As mentioned previously, Britain and the US have already caused another strife and problems in the world, are they suddently going to look at Afghanistan and have a change of heart?

 

Are you completly blinded by your own assumed vast intellect? I did not say we are there soely for the humanitarian good. WE ARE WAR WITH THE TALIBAN!!!!! But while we are they we are helping repair the damage caused by us AND THE TALIBAN and make the lives of the Afgan people better. So removing oppressive regieme? Check. Making godd what we broke? Trying but the Taliban aren't helping the situation. Trying to make things better? Definatly.

 

Besides how can anyone talk about humanitarianism when the war has involved the deaths of civilians to the extent it has? It is almost laughable if it weren't for the fact that it has involved deaths.

 

And every single death in Afganistan can be laid at the feet of the Coalition? Well, if the Taliban have invented car bombs and road side bombs that only hurt foreign soldiers and not the Afgans, I certainly havent heard about it. And all those executions the Taliban have commited? Please.

 

Maybe some people are getting medicine and the army is helping to rebuild. Well this is wonderful. Smash the country to smithereens with bombs, get rid of the Taliban regardless of the fact that thousands of civilians have died, but if Britain helps the economy and people get back on their feet we talk about it being humanitarian. It just isn't even worth considering for a moment given the facts.

 

So go on then smart arse what else would you call the things I did? I think the fact that your so anti-government, anti-Amed Forces and anti-pretty much anything no matter what people do, its all so big hidden meaning agenda. I think I can hear your ego calling. It says your so right on everything it hurts.

 

CONSPIRACY? What are you talking about? This isn't about conspiracy! It is just dispelling the propaganda line that surrounds people's understanding of the purpose of British foreign policy and all the bollocks about humanitarianism. Has nothing to do with conspiracy but is simply looking at the facts.

 

"dispelling the propaganda line", "bollocks about humanitarianism", "simply looking at the facts". Anyone one would think you are trying to unearth some earth shattering secret about what we are doing in Afganistan that the general populace is kept in the dark about. As if the government is hiding something from us. You could almost call it a....conspiracy.

 

Or you could call it LDV knowing everything there is to know about everything and knows better than everyone else.

[MilitantDogOwner]

LDV:

 

"Your humanitarian perspectives of the military amounts to little more than New Labour spin."

 

Right I'm going to use of the experience and first hand knowledge LDV, not something I read in a book or a newspaper so this might confuse you a bit.

 

I have personally, this is in real life, with my own hands, helped rebuild bridges destroyed by the Taliban, dug wells and irrigation channels to help the Afgan farmers grow their food crops, I've provide medical assistance to the old and the weak and helped build schools.

 

But I have also taken the fight to the Taliban and fought him hard.

 

The people who are in the Armed Forces are not automated killing machines brought up violent movies and video games to be totally desensitised to the violence. Yes we are in the business of war but we are also a force of humanitarian good.

 

Many of the Afgan people I spoke to were glad to see the back of the Taliban. The fighters of the insurgancy are the hard core Islamic fundementalist who want to keep the populace in the dark ages and foreign fighters from Iran and Pakistan who are there to help the local fighters keep the status quo.

 

This is not spin. This is hard, cold fact. Stick that up on your conspiracy wall.

 

 

your full of shit same as your ireland tosh..

 

totally full of shit..

 

 

you will say anything to get attention.. your a fucking nut job.

 

in ireland during the troubles and in afghanistan biulding bridges .. a 40 year army man or full of shit .. and full of shit gets my vote..

 

Ok, thanks for your contribution. I never said I was Ireland during the Troubles, I said I have been to Ireland during my service and providing a prospective of someone affected by the Troubles. And yes I have served in Afganistan. And I have only served 10 years.

 

So basically your the one talking shite. You'll jump into a thread not having anything intelligent to say on the subject and have a go at me just your empty little life has little other purpose to it.

 

I pity you.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Alright then oh learned one. Where does your vast and seemingly unlimited knowledge of all things military, tactrics, policy and war aims come from? Google, the Daily Wail?

 

Studying Military History for my BA for three years and currently taking an MA course in Intelligence and International Security Studies.

And I have a personal interest in naval strategy, counter-insurgency, current affairs, and politics.

 

"dispelling the propaganda line", "bollocks about humanitarianism", "simply looking at the facts". Anyone one would think you are trying to unearth some earth shattering secret about what we are doing in Afganistan that the general populace is kept in the dark about. As if the government is hiding something from us. You could almost call it a....conspiracy.

 

No conspiracy, there are no secrets, just lies.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I don't think MDO is a troll.