Compensation Madness?

[Chinahand]

I feel this idea is really strange.

 

Proposals to deal with the legacy of Northern Ireland's Troubles could cost up to £300m, a report has said.

 

The plans include a £12,000 payment for families of all those killed.

 

Unionists and some victims' groups have rejected the proposed payment because it would include republican and loyalist paramilitaries.

 

One of the critics speaking on the news described it as being like a scheme set up for the victims of 911 which included payments to the hijackers' families.

 

Something really goes to my gut about treating the victims of a bombing in the same way as a bomber who blew himself up with his own bomb.

[John]

How is compensating the bombers family right in any way?? The Compensation laws are already a shambles, this is just making it laughable.

[MilitantDogOwner]

The IRA were a terrorist organisation not a formal standing army. They were terrorists not soldiers, they were not at war but engaging in terrorist acts.

 

In my opinion this is horse shit. Terrorists families are being rewarded for their terrorist relations acts. I take it the family of every civilian and service man killed by the IRA's evil acts are part of the scheme.

 

Screw the lot of them. This couldn't anymore insulting if they tried.

 

The Manchester street bombing. Thats all I have to say to IRA families getting compensation.

[John Wright]

I think you ought to look at it against the history of how we see freedom fighters from Mau Mau and Kenyatta elder statesman through Aoka B and Makarios elderstatesman and ANC and Mandela elder statesmen, almost God figure

 

All were classed as criminals before leading their countries to freedom. All were imprisoned. Even Ghandi was imprisoned

 

Whio is the terrorist and who is the fredom fighter and who is the criminal the police, the occupying army

 

You also ought to read the report itself and not the false potrayals in the media

 

If you read the report this is not compensation. It is a recognition payment to families, affected by the troubles, of their having been bereaved, without judgement right or wrong.

 

Attrocities were committed by both sides, we are too close to judge. It is part of a package of measures to try and deal with the why where and how of many unsolved deaths and missing bodies, part of the rebuilding of Northern Ireland

 

I hope the families of troops and security services get it, the innocent bystanders and the rest including the famiies of those who fought a cause and are now helping build peace

 

Under Northern Ireland law there is in effect no blame under an aspect of the setting up of the power sharing executive.

 

if there is no legal blame there can be no distintion or discrimination in the making of these bereavement paymenst.

 

it will be cheaper than a seconf Bloody Sunday enquiry. it may help draw a line

 

Good on Lord/Archbishop Robin Eames

[La_Dolce_Vita]

The IRA were a terrorist organisation not a formal standing army. They were terrorists not soldiers, they were not at war but engaging in terrorist acts.

 

In my opinion this is horse shit. Terrorists families are being rewarded for their terrorist relations acts. I take it the family of every civilian and service man killed by the IRA's evil acts are part of the scheme.

 

Screw the lot of them. This couldn't anymore insulting if they tried.

 

The Manchester street bombing. Thats all I have to say to IRA families getting compensation.

 

I disagree very much with your point about the PIRA not conducting a war, they were a terrorist organisation but they were insurgents fighting against the British presence, which involved attacking the security forces, and in this war they were legitimate targets from the perspective of their analysis of the causes of the conflict. Killing soldiers, even policemen on duty is not terrorism.

But I think it worthwhile remembering that the PIRA were not the only terrorist group. The loyalist paramilitaries were just terrorists, certainly not fighting any war. They almost wholly lashed out at innocent Catholics in reprisal for PIRA and INLA attacks.

 

Nobody died or was seriously hurt in the Manchester Street Bombing. But what 'Bloody Friday'.

 

I am quite surprised that more money is being dished out in compensation considered the billions that were spent in compensating for criminal damage throughout the period of the troubles.

 

But the compensation of paramilitary members does baffle me. What good reasons are there to hand over money their families? The CICA that deals with compensation in the UK will significantly reduce or will not compensate if someone has been involved in serious crime.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

John - I understand the point you are trying to make. But it does seem like an impossible idea. Everyone in Northern Ireland and the UK was affected by the Troubles, to very varying degrees. I can understand people being bereaved but when those families have or had a family member who was involved in unjusitifiable terrorist behaviour I don't see the utility of just recognising their bereavement and then offer money. I could understand if there were no sectarian killings and only the police and military were the targets, but that is not how things happened. Innocents died at the hands of these paramilitary organisations.

 

I think far more could come from the loyalists, republicans, and the UK government recognising the mistakes they have made and apologise for them.

[jimbms]

I disagree very much with your point about the PIRA not conducting a war, they were a terrorist organisation but they were insurgents fighting against the British presence, which involved attacking the security forces, and in this war they were legitimate targets from the perspective of their analysis of the causes of the conflict. Killing soldiers, even policemen on duty is not terrorism.

If what you say is right then they as soldiers had been killed in an act of warfare thus not entitled to compensation. BUT this time you have taken the biscuit how can you say they only hit legitimate targets, Omagh, Birmingham pub bomb to name but two, they murdered civilians and security forces without discrimination, they also tortured any members of the security forces they captured which by your definition made them war criminals and thus subject to the death penalty. You son are not old enough to remember those years let alone have friends lost to those murdering bastards. Sometime I wonder what planet you live on, I think before you comment on such touchy subjects you should consider the reality not LDV's idealistic world, get a fucking grip and get some real life experience before you comment on subjects you know fuck all about.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

If what you say is right then they as soldiers had been killed in an act of warfare thus not entitled to compensation.

 

The PIRA were conducting what would be considered war, yes. However, the soldiers brought into the province were fighting back to some extent, they were counter-insurgents. I am not making judgement at all on whether the soldiers and families should receive compensation at all.

 

BUT this time you have taken the biscuit how can you say they only hit legitimate targets,

 

I said 'only'? No, the legitimate targets of the PIRA in the context of guerilla warfare were the soldiers and police in terms of the Green Mandate and political goals. But the mainland bombings and sectarian killings were not (edited: did not mean the say 'not') undoubtedly wrong.

In any case, I am making the point that the PIRA and INLA was not JUST a terrorist organisation, the OIRA certainly wasn't. But the Real IRA had little other objectives other to wage terrorism.

 

also tortured any members of the security forces they captured which by your definition made them war criminals and thus subject to the death penalty.

 

And if the PIRA and INLA wished to be seen as fighting a war, which they did, then maybe they should have treated in such a manner.

 

You son are not old enough to remember those years let alone have friends lost to those murdering bastards. Sometime I wonder what planet you live on, I think before you comment on such touchy subjects you should consider the reality not LDV's idealistic world, get a fucking grip and get some real life experience before you comment on subjects you know fuck all about.

 

You have misunderstood my point about the PIRA not being simply terrorist, maybe I didn't make it clear. But to say that I am not qualified to comment on these matters because I am too young and was not there is STUPID to say the least. You have made a similar point before when it comes to military matters, but to say that because you were a member of the armed forces and knew people that were there in the conflict does not mean you have a much better understanding of what was going on than anyone outside of it. You will have a particular understanding and one that involves seeing and hearing things first hand, but maybe you missed the bigger picture of what was going on, I just don't know. Maybe, you actually do have a much better understanding than I do of what was happening, but in this instance you misunderstood what I was saying. Nevertheless, if I hadn't made my point clear I am sorry to have caused you upset.

[pongo]

Jim, as John Wright said above, atrocities were committed on both sides. On one day in 1972 the British Army shot dead 13 unarmed civil rights protestors. Imagine if that had happened in Douglas. Many reasonable people would have wanted to join some sort of resistance and to fight back*. Not to forget that in the late 60s families were being burned out of their homes by the Loyalist mobs.

 

* edit: which is to say that you can see what lead people down that route

[Freggyragh]

I understand that there is legal framework in place which is attempting to draw a line under the conflict, but I think it is disgusting that killers and maimers, of whatever hue, in uniform or not, should be getting anything. So much damage was done by those who would kill in the name of a united Ireland or a United Kingdom - and it took so long to realise that you can't unite people by blowing them to bits.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Jim, as John Wright said above, atrocities were committed on both sides. On one day in 1972 the British Army shot dead 13 unarmed civil rights protestors. Imagine if that had happened in Douglas. Many reasonable people would have wanted to join some sort of resistance and to fight back. Not to forget that in the late 60s families were being burned out of their homes by the Loyalist mobs.

 

And of course you had the horrific Pitchfork Killings in Fermanagh.

 

I understand why people wanted to join and fight, I can see why Stormont needed to go, but the republican groups' cause and tactics were all wrong.

[P.K.]

Who is the terrorist and who is the freedom fighter?

It's actually very simple. Terrorists only become freedom fighters if they win.

 

Jim, as John Wright said above, atrocities were committed on both sides. On one day in 1972 the British Army shot dead 13 unarmed civil rights protestors.

Actually they came under lethal fire and had rioters throwing the usual. They shot back. Not exactly rocket science. They probably shot more than they should have but they were trained to deploy lethal force against a threat i.e. trained to a high degree to react. It's very unfortunate but just maybe you shouldn't shoot at the Parachute Regiment...

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Actually they came under lethal fire and had rioters throwing the usual. They shot back. Not exactly rocket science. They probably shot more than they should have but they were trained to deploy lethal force against a threat i.e. trained to a high degree to react. It's very unfortunate but just maybe you shouldn't shoot at the Parachute Regiment...

 

Actually, the troops who were there doing the shooting had little specific idea as to what they should do if they came under fire in Derry. Their superiors simply gave the response of "we'll deal with it when it comes". That's bad planning. The assumption was that things would play the same in Belfast as in Derry. And it didn't go that way. But you are right, the Army was trained to fight and engage the enemy if under attack but that was training not clear direction on a specific task. Nevertheless, though the Paras came under the fire, the ones who died were not the ones shootings and what was worse were the lies that the Army in Northern Ireland regularly used in the wake of any incident to cover the truth, and made over this issue.

[pongo]

they came under lethal fire and had rioters throwing the usual. They shot back. Not exactly rocket science. They probably shot more than they should have but they were trained to deploy lethal force against a threat i.e. trained to a high degree to react. It's very unfortunate but just maybe you shouldn't shoot at the Parachute Regiment...

 

I suppose that sooner or later the investigation will finally deliver it report. So far it keeps getting delayed. IIRC there is film of one of their officers screaming at the soldiers to stop shooting. Like they had lost control.

 

I'm certainly not going to fall into the mistake of glorifying anyone. But I can see why people felt that they should join. Same as people joined the various French resistance groups. I think it would have seemed like that then.

 

It's ironic and very sad that the 1973 agreement which the Unionist - Loyalists strikers collapsed was not so different from the ultimate Good Friday Agreement.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I'm certainly not going to fall into the mistake of glorifying anyone. But I can see why people felt that they should join. Same as people joined the various French resistance groups. I think it would have seemed like that then.

 

It's ironic and very sad that the 1973 agreement which the Unionist - Loyalists strikers collapsed was not so different from the ultimate Good Friday Agreement.

 

I can understand why people joined the PIRA too and the loyalist groups. But those that joined the PIRA were understandably wanting to protect their families from the Protestants, because you clearly couldn't rely on the army. Bombay Street demonstrated that as you mentioned. Who else you depend on for protection?

 

Well the British government and Stormont went wrong with the Sunngdale Agreement and the whole Irish Dimension thing. They completely went over the heads of the Protestant people, regardless of the lack of democracy already in NI, such a move was nothing but undemocratic and they were jusitifed in opposing it. Though not so much for the reasons they did, i.e. belief that it was a big step towards a union with the Republic