Compensation Madness?

[manshimajin]

Like you say a line under all this would be the best case scenario. But there are hurt feelings on both sides, and we all know that best case scenarios never happen. Grudges laid down 20 years ago are to this day being taken up by kids today and for no other reason than "thats what my daddy used to do".

You remind me of the kids, who are now the Dads, who used to throw rocks at the Saracens when they were 4 years old. the baton passing from one generation to the next. Like you I don't think money solves this issue - but maybe we should be quietly pleased that the situation is somewhat better than in former Yugoslavia, Palestine/Israel, Rwanda etc etc..

 

If, maybe, if, NI politicians can continue to show a level of maturity rather than sectarianism others will follow.

[MilitantDogOwner]

Like you say a line under all this would be the best case scenario. But there are hurt feelings on both sides, and we all know that best case scenarios never happen. Grudges laid down 20 years ago are to this day being taken up by kids today and for no other reason than "thats what my daddy used to do".

You remind me of the kids, who are now the Dads, who used to throw rocks at the Saracens when they were 4 years old. the baton passing from one generation to the next. Like you I don't think money solves this issue - but maybe we should be quietly pleased that the situation is somewhat better than in former Yugoslavia, Palestine/Israel, Rwanda etc etc..

 

If, maybe, if, NI politicians can continue to show a level of maturity rather than sectarianism others will follow.

 

I would have no objections to all military personnel withdrawing from NI. There is now purpose to them being there now. The majority of the paramilitary groups have moved over to organised crime and the Army are not police men. And as far as I can tell there has been no attacks against the UK so lets pull out and leave them to it.

[Freggyragh]

OK. MDO reverts to form. British Security Forces' collusion with loyalist terror groups is well documented, if not outright common knowledge. IMHO The history of UK government policy towards Ireland is pretty miserable right up until John Major's Downing Street Declaration. State sponsored murder is the same as terrorist murder. One of the factors that prolonged the troubles was that, whilst almost everyone was against the violence, the extremists could only see the violence of the other side. I'm thinking of Thatcher, Paisley and the like - who will both probably die safely in bed.

[MilitantDogOwner]

OK. MDO reverts to form. British Security Forces' collusion with loyalist terror groups is well documented, if not outright common knowledge. IMHO The history of UK government policy towards Ireland is pretty miserable right up until John Major's Downing Street Declaration. State sponsored murder is the same as terrorist murder. One of the factors that prolonged the troubles was that, whilst almost everyone was against the violence, the extremists could only see the violence of the other side. I'm thinking of Thatcher, Paisley and the like - who will both probably die safely in bed.

 

Reverting to form? Not sure what your getting at. I have stated several times that I agree that the Security Forces used some shady tactics as well as giving my opinion on paramilitarys use of civilian targets.

 

I want peace in NI. I really do, theres more than enough strife in the world, we don't need a 30 year lode stone around out neck in the 21st century.

 

I just dont think money is going to solve any problems. Theres too much bad feeling from both sides, and some getting while some don't is going to get peoples backs up and take the whole thing back a step.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

But the point you have been making is that people who have actually been somewhere and done something are somehow less placed to make comment on something that someone else has never experience and never been to the place in question?

 

Not less well placed. I am arguing against the point of view that says that a military person is more qualified to comment on the Troubles, simply because they were there. I am not arguing the opposite. Even if you told me you were fighting terrorists, it does not necessarily mean you are qualified to discuss the chances of success of terrorist strategy, the morality of their tactics, the mistakes made in counter-insurgency strategy. You may have that knowledge but it isn't a given. And a non-military person can come to their own conclusions from taking into account information that the soldier might never have seen. You get my point?

 

I'm telling you to shut up because you say that terror weapons and tactics were justified because so the poor IRA not being able to stand upto the Security Forces. And your trying to pass off the IRAs tactic of targetting civilians on the UK main land. The IRA of the troubles (and their splinter organisations) where not fighting for some noble cause. Do you think there would have been the same troop numbers in NI or any for that matter if troops weren't being killed and bombs being set of on the UK main land? I'm guessing the whole thing would have been over alot sooner.

 

No I am not trying to pass off the attacks on the mainland. I am not placing judgement on the IRA on the whole as a force for good or bad. What I am saying is that the weapons employed by the IRA against soldiers (such as bombs in barracks, bombs in places where soldiers frequented when not on duty, or sniper attacks) cannot be condemned because of the manner in which they killed or because it did not constitute conventional fighting. Though in many cases such weapons aimed at security killed civilians, and this cannot be justified.

 

The whole strategy of the PIRA allowed for more and more troops into the province, this was the purpose. Bring more and more troops in and make the British presence more obvious. Keep attacking them until the government becomes sick of the loses yet unable to completely deals with things. And perpetuate the idea that the community is being served by the PIRA in resisting this presence. It was misguided because the British could not just leave Northern Ireland nor could they ignore what was going on. Who knows what NI would have been like without the PIRA. They were terrorists and murderers but I doubt the province would have got to the position it has now without the republican paramilitaries. Though I suspect the progress that has been madei terms of representation of the Catholic population and their link with the Republic would never have occurred were it not the role of the PIRA. But their grand strategy was flawed.

 

I am not discounting your experience at all.

[pongo]

OK. MDO reverts to form. British Security Forces' collusion with loyalist terror groups is well documented, if not outright common knowledge. IMHO The history of UK government policy towards Ireland is pretty miserable right up until John Major's Downing Street Declaration. State sponsored murder is the same as terrorist murder. One of the factors that prolonged the troubles was that, whilst almost everyone was against the violence, the extremists could only see the violence of the other side. I'm thinking of Thatcher, Paisley and the like - who will both probably die safely in bed.

 

Yes.

 

Although one little point. Mrs Thatcher signed the Anglo Irish agreement. Paisley hated her for it but, ultimately it was a major step on the way towards what became the peace process. Bizarrely, frankly.

 

I have absolutely no idea how the civil servants managed to persuade her that it was on her agenda because it seems to have been out of character.

 

According to Peter Taylor, the excellent BBC journalist, MI6 (no not MI5) in Dublin had been in secret talks with the Provisionals almost since the collapse of the Sunningdale power-sharing agreement, and had long concluded that reunification was the inevitable outcome (that "two roads were leading in the same direction") -- and that Britain had no strategic interest in the north, or in preserving partition. From that point onward, according to Taylor, it was a question of how to bring the stalemate to an end and to somehow begin to bring the Unionists into that process. (And, I suppose British politicians although Taylor does not say that iirc).

 

I've simplified that but it is fairly well documented now from multiple sources.

[jimbms]

Bah bollocks to it all, who cares I had some serious fun and mischief over there I suppose occasionaly you have to throw the monkey a few peanuts every so often to keep it happy

[MilitantDogOwner]

Bring the Troops home and let the Irish fight amongst themselves. Cost the UK £0 and 0 lives.

 

Its a result!!

[jimbms]

Bring the Troops home and let the Irish fight amongst themselves. Cost the UK £0 and 0 lives.

 

Its a result!!

MDO will you please stop talking sense I am getting worried about you.

[P.K.]

2. Your missing the point I was making about the Super Collider. LDV was discussing the effects and use of weapon with only the knowledge he has gained from books and the internet. I was pointing out that for all the information he thinks he has on weapons, their effects and use is conjecture. Saying nail bombs were justified without knowing how truley awful they are is naive and dangerous.

Total bollocks. He wasn't saying nail bombs were justified, he was talking about them using whatever weapon is at hand to make the most effective strike. At the end of the day you don't really care about which weapon it was that killed you. Also "nail bombs" don't really do them justice. The one that struck us was full of coach bolts. But to post that he can't know how effective they can be without experiencing them is stupid. It's not exactly hard to read casualty lists you know.

 

As for this:

 

Bring the Troops home and let the Irish fight amongst themselves. Cost the UK £0 and 0 lives.

 

Its a result!!

Apart from the fact that in NI they're not Irish, they're British. Never mnd...

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Bring the Troops home and let the Irish fight amongst themselves. Cost the UK £0 and 0 lives.

 

Its a result!!

 

Only problem is, and you know it already, Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Its the Irish vs. the British.

But is there really any need for troops in Ireland at the moment. I must say that past the mid-90s my understanding of the situation is pretty scant. But I didn't think there was any conflict, just the problem of state competition in the form of community policing by small groups.

[MilitantDogOwner]

Bring the Troops home and let the Irish fight amongst themselves. Cost the UK £0 and 0 lives.

 

Its a result!!

MDO will you please stop talking sense I am getting worried about you.

 

 

Don't panic, normal service will resume shortly.

[MilitantDogOwner]

2. Your missing the point I was making about the Super Collider. LDV was discussing the effects and use of weapon with only the knowledge he has gained from books and the internet. I was pointing out that for all the information he thinks he has on weapons, their effects and use is conjecture. Saying nail bombs were justified without knowing how truley awful they are is naive and dangerous.

Total bollocks. He wasn't saying nail bombs were justified, he was talking about them using whatever weapon is at hand to make the most effective strike. At the end of the day you don't really care about which weapon it was that killed you. Also "nail bombs" don't really do them justice. The one that struck us was full of coach bolts. But to post that he can't know how effective they can be without experiencing them is stupid. It's not exactly hard to read casualty lists you know.

 

As for this:

 

Bring the Troops home and let the Irish fight amongst themselves. Cost the UK £0 and 0 lives.

 

Its a result!!

Apart from the fact that in NI they're not Irish, they're British. Never mnd...

 

Really, I wonder what accent all those British people in Northen Ireland are speaking? Are the Welsh or the Scottish British because they are part of the British Isles? No. The are Irish. If you ask them where they are born? Irish. If you ask them their nationality do they say British? No.

 

How much is the British government spending keeping troops in Ireland? How much of that would be better spent on the shite barracks that the troops are accomodated in on British soil?

[MilitantDogOwner]

Bring the Troops home and let the Irish fight amongst themselves. Cost the UK £0 and 0 lives.

 

Its a result!!

 

Only problem is, and you know it already, Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Its the Irish vs. the British.

But is there really any need for troops in Ireland at the moment. I must say that past the mid-90s my understanding of the situation is pretty scant. But I didn't think there was any conflict, just the problem of state competition in the form of community policing by small groups.

 

They are still Irish people.

 

And no, there is no need for troops in Ireland. Community policing is for the Police. Where is the confusion to be had in that?

[manshimajin]

Really, I wonder what accent all those British people in Northen Ireland are speaking? Are the Welsh or the Scottish British because they are part of the British Isles? No.

Do I gather MDO that you are in favour of breaking up the United Kingdom and having four countries in its place - or three if NI joins with the Irish Republic?