Max Power Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 If a cat is born in a fishmongers shop it doesn't make it a fish! I think nationalism is a state of mind as much as anything and being born somewhere doesn't always give you the percieved traits of that place. I'm not sure what it really means to be Manx? There seem to be so many different types of people here and I'd be hard pressed to come up with a picture of a typical Manxman. We all seem to have stereotypical images of people from other parts of these islands though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Well I think with a Celt origin surname, a Manx family, father's side going way back and a Southern Irish mother, with her family going way back in Ireland, I've got a bit more chance of being Celt than someone from Salford. Just a thought. The Irish aren't celtic either. Celts lived a very very long time ago you know? It would make a bit more sense to say yours ancestors were Britons, but does this make you a Briton? No, just sounds silly and little romantic. But claiming to be a Clet is even more bizarre, regardless of the cultural and linguistic legacy of the Britons. I don't think you do have more chance of being a Celt than someone from Salford. That person could have more Briton 'heritage' than you, yours might have adulterated with Norse blood. (If DNA actually matters, which I don't think it does). Anyone, Salford does have rather a mixed community, one large area if full of Irish 'travellers' or Irish who have recently moved there. Besides I am not from Salford. I am a govvag. Almost all of my family are Manx. But I went over here to fight the Romans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Erin Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 If I could be elected as Minister of Transport (something I feel passionately about), I'd maybe stand (I have toyed with the idea). The reality is that IF I got in, I'd no doubt do an entire first term as a rookie backbencher and maybe eventually get a shot at a department I have little interest in, and only if I was re-elected. So being Minister of Transport would probably be at least 17 years away, by which time I expect to be dead. But I hate committees, interminable meetings, mountains of paperwork, toeing the line and being nice to people I don't like. So in all, I'm not really suited to being an MHK or MLC. Becoming President of the World and Supreme Despot (even in my head) is much more fun. If a dog is born in a stable, it's not a horse. Therefore, by virtue, you were born in England and shall remain English (and be thankful for it!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I dont have a problem with people quoting Manx but recently I feel that it is becoming more than an interest and people are expected to speak more and more of it? I speak Manx everyday - to other Manx speakers. I sincerely hope that doesn't upset you. It is more than an interest to me, but I don't expect you to have to learn it. Learning a language is long process and I wouldn't want anyone to feel that they had to go through the process, especially as I speak English as well, and 99% of Manx speakers are quite happy to switch to English when non-speakers are involved in the conversation. I am glad that you don't have a problem with people quoting Manx, that is very tolerant of you, but why does the living existence of the language bother you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smooks Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Quite a few Celts in Salford, like many industrial towns in the North West of England, lots of Irish and Welsh moved there for the work. In fact didn't Plaid Cymru suggest Liverpool as a possible capital of a pan-Celtic nation? edit - did I imagine someone talking about Salford? No Declan it wasn't a mad moment, I just thought the original was too abrasive, as that wasn't my intention so did a quick edit. I do find it amusing however that the English, either living here, or with an interest in the island from across don't like to be reminded of our Celt roots and heritage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I speak Manx everyday - to other Manx speakers. I sincerely hope that doesn't upset you. It is more than an interest to me, but I don't expect you to have to learn it. Learning a language is long process and I wouldn't want anyone to feel that they had to go through the process, especially as I speak English as well, and 99% of Manx speakers are quite happy to switch to English when non-speakers are involved in the conversation. I am glad that you don't have a problem with people quoting Manx, that is very tolerant of you, but why does the living existence of the language bother you? Why do you speak Manx everyday, do you teach it? Just curious. I am glad the language is being revived. I don't think a great deal of priority should be given to it over French, German, and other languages of more global importance, but I think it good to encourage it. I think it is one of the nicest sounding languages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 No Declan it wasn't a mad moment, I just thought the original was too abrasive, as that wasn't my intention so did a quick edit. I do find it amusing however that the English, either living here, or with an interest in the island from across don't like to be reminded of our Celt roots and heritage. I find it amusing that you make the assumption that I am English but more so that you believe Celtic roots (what? going back well over a thousand years?) makes you a Celt. As a Manxman I have never daubed myself with war paint andI don't worship Cernunnos or Epona. Some of my english wicca friends do they, they're crazy witches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smooks Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Well I think with a Celt origin surname, a Manx family, father's side going way back and a Southern Irish mother, with her family going way back in Ireland, I've got a bit more chance of being Celt than someone from Salford. Just a thought. The Irish aren't celtic either. Celts lived a very very long time ago you know? It would make a bit more sense to say yours ancestors were Britons, but does this make you a Briton? No, just sounds silly and little romantic. But claiming to be a Clet is even more bizarre, regardless of the cultural and linguistic legacy of the Britons. I don't think you do have more chance of being a Celt than someone from Salford. That person could have more Briton 'heritage' than you, yours might have adulterated with Norse blood. (If DNA actually matters, which I don't think it does). Anyone, Salford does have rather a mixed community, one large area if full of Irish 'travellers' or Irish who have recently moved there. Besides I am not from Salford. I am a govvag. Almost all of my family are Manx. But I went over here to fight the Romans. From Peel really? Is claiming to be Celt any more bizarre than claiming to be Saxon? I think not. Anyway my point is just like some comeovers are grateful for not being Manx, I'm grateful not to be English. The point of my involvement with this thread however is not especially to demonstrate my Manx credentials, it's to take issue with the comeovers who moan about living here. Which I must confess is a pet irritant of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smooks Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 No Declan it wasn't a mad moment, I just thought the original was too abrasive, as that wasn't my intention so did a quick edit. I do find it amusing however that the English, either living here, or with an interest in the island from across don't like to be reminded of our Celt roots and heritage. I find it amusing that you make the assumption that I am English but more so that you believe Celtic roots (what? going back well over a thousand years?) makes you a Celt. As a Manxman I have never daubed myself with war paint andI don't worship Cernunnos or Epona. Some of my english wicca friends do they, they're crazy witches. It may well amuse you but I can't help but wonder just how far off the mark I may be. We'll never know for sure though will we, either way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyboarder Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 If a cat is born in a fishmongers shop it doesn't make it a fish! If a dog is born in a stable, it's not a horse. Bugger me, we're getting a bit florid on it here, to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Yes, and my Dad's side originate from one of the previouly most isolated areas of the Island, Dalby. Nevertheless, the surname used to be Hutchin so I always wonder when the English (or maybe Scottish side came over) But no, it makes sense to call yourself Saxon if you are from Saxony. It is a pet hate of mine too. I hate hearing the Manx whinge about comeovers because of the supposedly apparent problems it has caused and causes and I hate the seeming arrogance of those who believe being English is better than being Manx. When really it doesn't matter in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I speak Manx everyday - to other Manx speakers. I sincerely hope that doesn't upset you. It is more than an interest to me, but I don't expect you to have to learn it. Learning a language is long process and I wouldn't want anyone to feel that they had to go through the process, especially as I speak English as well, and 99% of Manx speakers are quite happy to switch to English when non-speakers are involved in the conversation. I am glad that you don't have a problem with people quoting Manx, that is very tolerant of you, but why does the living existence of the language bother you? Why do you speak Manx everyday, do you teach it? Just curious. I am glad the language is being revived. I don't think a great deal of priority should be given to it over French, German, and other languages of more global importance, but I think it good to encourage it. I think it is one of the nicest sounding languages. So, at the end of the day, you're not an anarchist at all are you, you are an imperialist. I speak a few languages, and the fascinating thing about languages is the unique way of describing the world that each carries. The imperial languages have remarkably similar outlooks. I prefer speaking Manx because the language is free from a lot of what I dislike about modern English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 So, at the end of the day, you're not an anarchist at all are you, you are an imperialist. I speak a few languages, and the fascinating thing about languages is the unique way of describing the world that each carries. The imperial languages have remarkably similar outlooks. I prefer speaking Manx because the language is free from a lot of what I dislike about modern English. Not an imperialist, but I recognise that Manx is a dead language and has no value as a tool to be used when communicating with people of others cultures. It was a victim of imperialism, but languages do not necessarily become supplanted or die out because of imperialism. Would you agree? I really want to learn though, but now at the moment. But what is Manx free from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 The point of my involvement with this thread however is not especially to demonstrate my Manx credentials, it's to take issue with the comeovers who moan about living here. Which I must confess is a pet irritant of mine. My impression is that most of the moaning is done by locals. Comeovers are unlikely to come over if they don't think much of the place. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Yes, and my Dad's side originate from one of the previouly most isolated areas of the Island, Dalby. Nevertheless, the surname used to be Hutchin so I always wonder when the English (or maybe Scottish side came over) But no, it makes sense to call yourself Saxon if you are from Saxony. It is a pet hate of mine too. I hate hearing the Manx whinge about comeovers because of the supposedly apparent problems it has caused and causes and I hate the seeming arrogance of those who believe being English is better than being Manx. When really it doesn't matter in any way. Yeah, but in reality, most Manx don't have a problem with comeovers per se, and most English don't believe being English is better than being Manx - it just seems that way when you read these forums! By the way, the surname Hutchin was spelt in a number of ways, Hudgeon, Hudson etc, but is Manx. There are a lot of surnames that were altered or translated into English, so that they sometimes appear to be of non-Gaelic origin when the opposite is true eg; Nelson, Goldsmith, Walker, Watterson, Morrison etc. This from Surnames & Place-Names of The Isle of Man by A W Moore (one of the founders of The Manx Language Society) 1890: HuTCHiN, HuTCHEN, HuDGEON, from the root hig, Jwg, hug, ' thought,' ' study.' Compare (Scotch) Hutcheon, McHutchin. (Enghsh) Hutchinson. HucHON [151 1], Hutcheon [1540], Hutchin [1570], HUTCHEN [1586], HUDGEON [1785], MacHUTCHIN [i80I]. It is now very uncommon. Formerly © in Marown, German, Rushen, and (u) in Maughold, Malew, Lonan, Arbory, Patrick. There you go LDV - your surname could hardly be more Manx, and hardly more Celtic (no Norse in that name!) And, Sorry Smooks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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