Cambridge University Student Shows Some Intelligence

[cheesemonster2005]

A protester has thrown a shoe at Wen Jiabao during a speech at Cambridge University and called the Chinese prime minister a "dictator".

 

The shoe landed about a metre away from Mr Wen and the protester, a young man, was then removed by security guards.

 

Mr Wen, who earlier signed a series of trade agreements with Gordon Brown on the final day of a three-day UK visit, described the incident as "despicable".

 

Protests have taken place about human rights and Tibet during his visit.

 

BBC News

 

Bravo! Another shoe put to good use.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Bravo! Another shoe put to good use.

 

 

I would have loved to have seen that.

 

I want to see Tony Blair hit with a clog.

[cheesemonster2005]

You can watch the video on the above link but unfortunately (like the Bush show) he missed. He was also booed by others in the audience with calls of 'shame on you'. I'm suprised; if I'd have decided to go to a speech given by the Chinese prime minister it would have been because I was hoping for some kind of protest to embarrass the guy. No doubt the Police will be treating to a first class meal as he spends his token night in jail.

[Pragmatopian]

Shame on him? I say shame on those such as Cambridge University and the IOC who, by entertaining such tyrants, lend legitimacy to their warped regimes and draw a polite veil over the dreadful crimes that they perpetrate in an effort to 'preserve political stability'.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Shame on him? I say shame on those such as Cambridge University and the IOC who, by entertaining such tyrants, lend legitimacy to their warped regimes and draw a polite veil over the dreadful crimes that they perpetrate in an effort to 'preserve political stability'.

 

The only problem is that we can moralise about the Chinese politicians, but the British politicians are not better. They are just as responsible for dreadful crimes.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Shame on him? I say shame on those such as Cambridge University and the IOC who, by entertaining such tyrants, lend legitimacy to their warped regimes and draw a polite veil over the dreadful crimes that they perpetrate in an effort to 'preserve political stability'.

 

The only problem is that we can't moralise much about the Chinese politicians because the British politicians are not better. They are just as responsible for dreadful crimes. They are equally deserving of this treatment.

[Chinahand]

Shame on him? I say shame on those such as Cambridge University and the IOC who, by entertaining such tyrants, lend legitimacy to their warped regimes and draw a polite veil over the dreadful crimes that they perpetrate in an effort to 'preserve political stability'.

Wen Jiabao isn't a tyrant. Trying to actually understand what he is is more complex than I can explain. But no single person, or really even coherent group of people are directly responsible for what China is.

 

Its like saying some Soviet leader just before Gorbachev was the dictator of Russia - in fact he was a committee member of a committee which didn't really control the instruments of government, and the government didn't really control the country.

 

Wen Jiabao and Hu Jintao are riding a tiger. I am no defender of the methods they try to use to influence the tiger's behaviour, which can be violent and oppressive, but the idea that they can simply change their methods and turn the tiger into a liberal democratic pussy cat respecting human rights and following the rule of law is just a fantasy.

 

I find Wen Jiabao's ideology incomprehensible and the crude authoritarianism China uses to try to control its social tensions hateful and counter productive, but finding a way to unwind those social tensions and to allow China to achieve its potential (at the moment on a per capita basis its as successful as Albania) is one hugely difficult task.

 

He's the prime minister of a country of one billion people, many of whom face poverty and social difficulties we can hardly imagine. He's not doing a bad job and I don't envy him his job. Its easy to condemn, but I don't know how to do it better, and don't think anyone else does either.

[Chinahand]

Sychophantic - yes.

Simplistic - yes.

Unrepresentative of Chinese views - who know.

But this isn't far from alot of Chinese views of their PM.

 

Clicky

[Whimsy]

II want to see Tony Blair hit with a clog.

 

 

I want to see Hugo Chavez's mum hit with a lightly strapped flip flop

[Pragmatopian]

Shame on him? I say shame on those such as Cambridge University and the IOC who, by entertaining such tyrants, lend legitimacy to their warped regimes and draw a polite veil over the dreadful crimes that they perpetrate in an effort to 'preserve political stability'.

Wen Jiabao isn't a tyrant. Trying to actually understand what he is is more complex than I can explain. But no single person, or really even coherent group of people are directly responsible for what China is.

 

Its like saying some Soviet leader just before Gorbachev was the dictator of Russia - in fact he was a committee member of a committee which didn't really control the instruments of government, and the government didn't really control the country.

 

Wen Jiabao and Hu Jintao are riding a tiger. I am no defender of the methods they try to use to influence the tiger's behaviour, which can be violent and oppressive, but the idea that they can simply change their methods and turn the tiger into a liberal democratic pussy cat respecting human rights and following the rule of law is just a fantasy.

 

I find Wen Jiabao's ideology incomprehensible and the crude authoritarianism China uses to try to control its social tensions hateful and counter productive, but finding a way to unwind those social tensions and to allow China to achieve its potential (at the moment on a per capita basis its as successful as Albania) is one hugely difficult task.

 

He's the prime minister of a country of one billion people, many of whom face poverty and social difficulties we can hardly imagine. He's not doing a bad job and I don't envy him his job. Its easy to condemn, but I don't know how to do it better, and don't think anyone else does either.

 

I would argue that Wen Jiabao and other senior party officials have a lot more control over China's progress than do the hundreds of millions of 'ordinary' Chinese people who are impoverished economically and silenced politically by the regime. Any claim that Wen and his ilk are victims of the system grates with me as much as to suggest that the SS guards of Nazi were victims of the system that Hitler built and society perpetuated. We all have free will, whether we are prepared to recognise it or not.

 

It is not appropriate for us to pussyfoot around the issue of establishing basic human rights in China just because they've taken a few steps towards economic liberalization and exert an increasingly substantial economic clout on the global stage. Ultimately, China is still more dependent on the rest of the world than the rest of the world is on China, so if they want to engage in cosy Cambridge debates on subjects that are acceptable to them they have to put their house in order first.

[Pragmatopian]

Shame on him? I say shame on those such as Cambridge University and the IOC who, by entertaining such tyrants, lend legitimacy to their warped regimes and draw a polite veil over the dreadful crimes that they perpetrate in an effort to 'preserve political stability'.

 

The only problem is that we can't moralise much about the Chinese politicians because the British politicians are not better. They are just as responsible for dreadful crimes. They are equally deserving of this treatment.

 

Our politicians are no saints, but it's a leap of the imagination to suggest that are no better than Chinese politicians.

 

British politicians are required to take criticism constantly without supression and to put themselves at our mercy every few years. The Chinese on the other hand can have any colour as long as it's red.

[Chinahand]

Erm I never said that Wen was a victim of the system: I said he was riding the tiger and uses violence, oppression, crude authoritarian and incomprehensible ideology to do so.

 

But for all that I have no idea how to do a better job than he has done. How should he put his house in order?

 

Do you know of the idea of the J-curve - it isn't impossible that political openness will increase instability in China and if you know anything about China's history you'll see that millions of people can die there if the wheels fall off.

 

I'm not surprised he is an incrementalist - the reforms China have undertaken have brough vastly better living conditions to hundreds of millions of people. There are still vast injustices in that country and the actions of the CCP often do not help that, but China for all the steps back it makes when it beats a protestor, or locks up a human rights lawyer it is making genuine progress.

 

I passionately want to help that progress continue, but to do that you've got to admit the complexity of the situation and calling Wen a dictator isn't accurate or helpful.

[Sidney]

II want to see Tony Blair hit with a clog.

 

 

I want to see Hugo Chavez's mum hit with a lightly strapped flip flop

I want to see Felicity Kendal hit with large wet salmon. Across the arse.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Our politicians are no saints, but it's a leap of the imagination to suggest that are no better than Chinese politicians.

 

British politicians are required to take criticism constantly without supression and to put themselves at our mercy every few years. The Chinese on the other hand can have any colour as long as it's red.

 

 

No saints, British politicians are in the main absolute bastards.

 

It isn't what I meant, I should have been more specific. And you aren't recognising the features of the British political system.

You say it is only 'red' in China, which isn't quite true, but the political spectrum is very limited. But when you compare the how things are over the in the UK you can see that it is almost a one-party system, certainly in the USA it is. There isn't much meaningful difference between the political parties. And it is actually the people who are at the mercy of the ruling class in the UK. I mean, you ONLY have your vote, nothing more. They are in control, you just have the opportunity to change the specific person.

 

But what I was referring to the crimes committed by British politicians. When you assess British foreign policy, you cannot criticise the Chinese in Tibet and let British government off the hook.

[Pragmatopian]

I admit that redirecting something as large as China is no easy task, but I don't think that's any reason to give up unrelenting pressure on them to clean up their act in terms of rights - it is by no means certain that it will follow as a consequence of market liberalisation. We sometimes forget how fortunate we are to live in a society where basic human rights were embedded into our culture long before the population took off and industrialisation arrived on the scene. It is our duty to the Chinese people to help them in obtaining the same freedoms.