Slim Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 One particular way it is unjust is by the fact that the workers have no control whatsoever over the running of capitalist system yet you compare the impact that its failings on the lives of workers and it demonstrates that the worker has little control over the life. Any freezing or reduction in wages has a big impact on people's lives, yet even if though the public are not responsible they shoulder the burden and their wages and jobs are where the hit is taken. That isn't very just. Especially considering the unfortunate dependence of wages which are needed to ensure one's very survival. It just demonstrates a massive level of exploitation. I don't get your distinction between workers and whoever's in control. Nobody's fully in control of a capitalist economy. But what's your alternative? The public aren't responsible? Of course they are. The public created massive debts, they borrowed what they didn't have, they bought things they couldn't afford. Their not solely to blame, but populations are definitely implicated! This recession is a financial issue, not resource shortage or natural catastrophe. Nothing has actually occurred that should have a bearing on people's lives. I think you're mental, quite frankly. You've got some idealistic marxist bollocks in your head, but it doesn't pan out into any understanding of how systems should work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Where did this £40k figure come from? I know a bus driver very well, and I can assure you that even if he took every bit of overtime that was offered he wouldn't even get within shouting distance of £40k per year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I don't get your distinction between workers and whoever's in control. Nobody's fully in control of a capitalist economy. But what's your alternative? The issue of control rests on the fact that it is workers who make the economy go round yet have no control in this instance over the decisionmaking that has led to this financial crisis. The public aren't responsible? Of course they are. The public created massive debts, they borrowed what they didn't have, they bought things they couldn't afford. Their not solely to blame, but populations are definitely implicated! All of the public? Did everyone take out the same amount in credit and needed credit? There is no justification for this situation that has led to job losses, pay freezes and theft by the state to prop up the banks. And are you even reflecting the role of banks to make profit? These banks advertise heavily to try and get customer's to take credit. Areas of focus are mainly on those who have the least money and see loans as a good answer to their problem. These banks are driven by the need to make profit by robbing people and they do this by offering credit. The make money with the interest. It's about risk. If the risk is high and they lend then if problems occur it is their responsibility. (Now I understand the consequences of a bank collapse, but the issue of responsibility is paramount). I think you're mental, quite frankly. You've got some idealistic marxist bollocks in your head, but it doesn't pan out into any understanding of how systems should work. As I have already have said, I understand why and how you come to your conclusions about what should happen. But from my perspective, full backing for the current system and all that it engenders borders on the misanthropic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manin42 Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Whats wrong with the Bus drivers getting a decent wage, just because the rest of us do not get a fair reward, we should not try and drag them back down i dont see anyone moaning about Bankers pay, the Bus Drivers have a responsible Job. The thing on the isle of man is everyones thinks they are part of the system , your not , your just Wage Slaves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesultanofsheight Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 These banks are driven by the need to make profit by robbing people and they do this by offering credit. How is it possible to rob people by giving them money? As Slim alluded to above frankly your views are tiresome in the extreme and its amazing how a GCSE in Marxism seems to equip you with the means to talk total shite for the next 10 years of your life. Maybe when you get a proper job and experience a bit more of life you'll wake up and realise what crap you talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macmannin Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Here here,Ldv please stop with your tiresome bollocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyboarder Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 40k? Lol,lol............ that bloke down the pub should get a hobby you know, embroidery or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 How is it possible to rob people by giving them money? In the method of making profit by adding interest to the money that is loaned. You don't pay back just what you take. As with the selling of goods to make profit, this is just the selling of money. Such transactions simply aim to fleece the worker of their wages in the long run. As Slim alluded to above frankly your views are tiresome in the extreme and its amazing how a GCSE in Marxism seems to equip you with the means to talk total shite for the next 10 years of your life. Maybe when you get a proper job and experience a bit more of life you'll wake up and realise what crap you talk. 10 years? Do hope it lasts longer than that. I don't think it is helpful to state how I am talking crap, you just whinge about my posts. If I can jazz them up a bit, let me know how but I won't change my tune. If you don't 'get' what I am saying then that really is a shame. Why do you assume I don't have a proper job? Anyhow, who knows you might lose yours someday soon. How much 'life' do you need to become ignorant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manin42 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Can the posters that say " Your talking shite" or its a lot of bollocks" please expand there argument and present a coherent point of view From a socialist point of view it just seems to me your presenting the views of your Masters. The first they do is try and make the opposition out to be foolish I know that wage slaves can get annoyed when others do better and the reason they do better is because they are in organised labour , go on raise your Pens and fill in the forms join a union Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahc Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Hello manin, welcome to the boards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 The issue of control rests on the fact that it is workers who make the economy go round yet have no control in this instance over the decisionmaking that has led to this financial crisis. Who are 'the workers' Citizen Smith? Who do you class as a worker, and who is a decision maker? I think plenty of employees had a hand in this decisionmaking, and in fact one of the many things that helped shape the financial crisis was the incentivisation of individuals like business development people and salespeople which focused credit on short term bonuses selling to people who really shouldn't have been sold to. All of the public? Did everyone take out the same amount in credit and needed credit? There is no justification for this situation that has led to job losses, pay freezes and theft by the state to prop up the banks. And are you even reflecting the role of banks to make profit? These banks advertise heavily to try and get customer's to take credit. Areas of focus are mainly on those who have the least money and see loans as a good answer to their problem. So you're full of socialist views, but you think the entire public should benefit when things are going well, but when the system crashes the individuals responsible should fail and not everyone? You think money shouldn't be made from lending? If there wasn't profit in lending, nobody would lend, then we'd be in even deeper shit. Lending exists because there's a demand for it, why not satisfy that demand? Yes, it should have been done more responsibly, but that's a fine tune, not a failure of the system. As I have already have said, I understand why and how you come to your conclusions about what should happen. But from my perspective, full backing for the current system and all that it engenders borders on the misanthropic. You're full of bleat for the current system, Wolfie, but I don't hear any solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurashima Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Go on raise your Pens and fill in the forms join a union Oh christ no! Whilst working for an unnamed financial services company on the Island, we were approached by a national union and offered membership. This same union had just "Negotiated" , on our behalf , a payrise of 2% below inflation. Added to the yearly fees they were asking, we worked out that for the right to say we had union membership , we were worse off by about £160 a year as their ability to negotiate seemed to involve picking one of their mates in the office, saying "Youre the union rep" (regardless of experience) and then going back to the UK on the next boat/flight. If youll tell me that for my annual subscription , theyll fly over an experienced, skilled negotiator, once a year , who on behalf of 50+ people will negotiate a payrise in line with inflation so that I can cover the rip off bastard gas bill and maybe afford a flight to the UK once or twice a year, Ill give you my cash in a heartbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Go on raise your Pens and fill in the forms join a union Oh christ no! Whilst working for an unnamed financial services company on the Island, we were approached by a national union and offered membership. This same union had just "Negotiated" , on our behalf , a payrise of 2% below inflation. Added to the yearly fees they were asking, we worked out that for the right to say we had union membership , we were worse off by about £160 a year as their ability to negotiate seemed to involve picking one of their mates in the office, saying "Youre the union rep" (regardless of experience) and then going back to the UK on the next boat/flight. If youll tell me that for my annual subscription , theyll fly over an experienced, skilled negotiator, once a year , who on behalf of 50+ people will negotiate a payrise in line with inflation so that I can cover the rip off bastard gas bill and maybe afford a flight to the UK once or twice a year, Ill give you my cash in a heartbeat. Unions are the most cynical exploitation of the working man that has ever been invented. Unions are unaccountable, non-democratic, scams which exist to permit the union leaders to have a wonderful life-style at the expense of their members. In the UK, unions have played a major role in the destruction of whole industries - car-making, ship-building, and mining, to name but three. And don't get me onto printing. The best way for a working man to help himself is to further his education, work hard, and get promoted. Advising people to join a union is the counsel of despair. Anybody who says otherwise is either an idiot or a charlatan. IMHO, of course. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurashima Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 And don't get me onto printing. No no , please do get started on printing. Im a regular reader of the Eye , and im watching the current demolition job being done on the quality of journalism and the newspapers which used to be its lifeblood. An addendum on printing would be of great interest, as its an aspect I rarely see covered in any mainstream article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 And don't get me onto printing. No no , please do get started on printing. Im a regular reader of the Eye , and im watching the current demolition job being done on the quality of journalism and the newspapers which used to be its lifeblood. An addendum on printing would be of great interest, as its an aspect I rarely see covered in any mainstream article. The print unions have been emasculated by technology, and are therefore now but shadows of their former, monstrous, selves. At their height, they embodied everything that was wrong with British trades-unionism. All power tends to corrupt, and absolute power tends to corrupt ansolutely, as Harold Acton said. And the print unions had absolute power. I operate a boycott on every product of the Murdoch empire. I also strongly dislike Margaret Thatcher. But I do acknowledge a debt to both of them for redressing the huge imbalance of power in favour of the unions that had crippled Britain since WWII. Murdoch's role, of course, was to move the Times to Wapping, and print the paper on modern, computer-driven presses that didn't need traditional skills. What's important to remember is that unionised labour can be every bit as exploitative, greedy, bullying, and ruthless as the evil bosses that populate the small world of LDV's imaginings. That's not to say that unions are always bad, far from it, but to pretend that they are always a force for good is the height of self-delusion. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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