Buses - Strike Coming?

[Albert Tatlock]

[Sebrof]

Therein lies your problem, LDV. Orwell was arguably one of the most important writers of the 20thC. If you haven't read Orwell, you can't really claim to be educated. You get your ideas from a very narrow range of sources. To have any credibility here or anywhere else you need to read much more widely.

 

Very funny, I haven't read the Bible either and that truly is an important book. I have read some Virginia Woolf, Mrs Dalloway was quite lovely. But I don't need to read Orwell, have an insight into his criticisms of political systems and thinking to claim to be educated.

 

I should plead the 5th if I were you.

 

S

[La_Dolce_Vita]

A worker is anyone drawing a wage? Which is almost everyone in the banking industry apart from the shareholders. So actually all your arguments above are about bankers and non-bankers, and not workers at all?

 

Anyone dependent on a wage, yes. When I was referring to the workers I was referring ALL workers taking the hit where responsiblity does not lie with all of them. It does lie with some workers, though most socialists like to draw a dividing line against managers who chase bonuses and those determine the banks specific methods of making profit, and shareholders.

 

That's the rub with risk and reward. That alternative you're suggesting is?

 

Either an anarchist system or a communist one. Certainly one that is not capitalist. But as on another thread, social democracy would be a slight improvement.

 

Basically the US has a more traditional wholesale/retail relationship that sells mortgages. The banks give a rate to the broker, the broker adds his cut, and sells it to a buyer, the buyer doesn't actually know the bank rate he's on, only the rate his broker tells him.

 

In the UK your broker is now more of an advisor, he'll steer you to the mortgage company and usually earn a commission for his trouble, but then the relationship is between you and the lender, you see the lenders rates and your broker is now out of the deal.

 

Thanks for the explanation. I did think that was you meant in terms of the US method when you responding about the issue of responsibility. And yes, well the mortgage brokers have a level of responsibility. But mortgage brokers are employer, are they not?

[Declan]

Therein lies your problem, LDV. Orwell was arguably one of the most important writers of the 20thC. If you haven't read Orwell, you can't really claim to be educated. You get your ideas from a very narrow range of sources. To have any credibility here or anywhere else you need to read much more widely.

 

Very funny, I haven't read the Bible either and that truly is an important book. I have read some Virginia Woolf, Mrs Dalloway was quite lovely. But I don't need to read Orwell, have an insight into his criticisms of political systems and thinking to claim to be educated.

 

 

 

Then we'll be glad to hear your thoughts on modernism and stream of consciousness. I'm not sure how we can take you seriously if you hold the view point you hold, and not have read Orwell. And the reason is not for "his criticisms of political systems and thinking" - you can get the gist of that from wikipedia, but for the insight that those systems have on ordinary folk.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Then we'll be glad to hear your thoughts on modernism and stream of consciousness. I'm not sure how we can take you seriously if you hold the view point you hold, and not have read Orwell. And the reason is not for "his criticisms of political systems and thinking" - you can get the gist of that from wikipedia, but for the insight that those systems have on ordinary folk.

 

But the assumption you are making is that I will not have that insight if I do read Orwell. I am working class, the people I work with are working class, I read the papers and read about working class action and movements, I also read into history, etc. I don't doubt the excellence of his writings, his ability to make an assessment of the position for ordinary people in different countries and in the UK. But his writing are not necessary to gain an understanding. I would like to read about his time in Catalonia, but I have no need to read 1984 or Animal Farm (the cartoon put me off), for example.

[Sebrof]

Then we'll be glad to hear your thoughts on modernism and stream of consciousness. I'm not sure how we can take you seriously if you hold the view point you hold, and not have read Orwell. And the reason is not for "his criticisms of political systems and thinking" - you can get the gist of that from wikipedia, but for the insight that those systems have on ordinary folk.

 

But the assumption you are making is that I will not have that insight if I do read Orwell. I am working class, the people I work with are working class, I read the papers and read about working class action and movements, I also read into history, etc. I don't doubt the excellence of his writings, his ability to make an assessment of the position for ordinary people in different countries and in the UK. But his writing are not necessary to gain an understanding. I would like to read about his time in Catalonia, but I have no need to read 1984 or Animal Farm (the cartoon put me off), for example.

 

You are not working class, and you have very little insight into anything. You are extremely ignorant, and the reason is partly that you have read almost nothing save a few tracts by equallly ignorant people, and partly that you mix with a bunch of idle nitwiits who know even less.

 

Here's a quote I enjoyed recently: "I am not young enough to know everything". It seems you still are. Only a complete jackass would claim that he hadn't read one of the seminal works of literature because "the cartoon put me off".

 

LDV, you are surely proof that truth is stranger than fiction. If you didn't already exist, nobody could invent you.

 

S

[Declan]

But the assumption you are making is that I will not have that insight if I do read Orwell. I am working class, the people I work with are working class, I read the papers and read about working class action and movements, I also read into history, etc. I don't doubt the excellence of his writings, his ability to make an assessment of the position for ordinary people in different countries and in the UK. But his writing are not necessary to gain an understanding. I would like to read about his time in Catalonia, but I have no need to read 1984 or Animal Farm (the cartoon put me off), for example.

 

I'm making an assumption? That's an assumption in itself. Whether you are working class or not or work with the working class (bet they're delighted!) is irrelevant. You don't live in the society, or even the system described in 1984 therefore your experiences are different.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Flamer! I take it from that reaction you are a fan of Orwell, because the idea that I have a problem because I haven't read Orwell is a little amusing. And my readership is limited because I have had no interest in reading Animal Farm, which is the case and not because I watched the cartoon.

 

You don't live in the society, or even the system described in 1984 therefore your experiences are different.

 

Why would I need to? And who has? I am not quite sure what you are saying, is that by not reading Orwell I have no basis to make a claim to have class consciousness? Or that I somehow have no true understanding of politics?

[Sebrof]

Flamer! I take it from that reaction you are a fan of Orwell, because the idea that I have a problem because I haven't read Orwell is a little amusing. And my readership is limited because I have had no interest in reading Animal Farm, which is the case and not because I watched the cartoon.

 

You don't live in the society, or even the system described in 1984 therefore your experiences are different.

 

Why would I need to? And who has? I am not quite sure what you are saying, is that by not reading Orwell I have no basis to make a claim to have class consciousness? Or that I somehow have no true understanding of politics?

 

You have a problem, LDV, because you have barely read anything. Had you done so, your outlook would be a little more balanced. Your assumption that you know everything is based on knowing nothing.

 

S

[La_Dolce_Vita]

You have a problem, LDV, because you have barely read anything. Had you done so, your outlook would be a little more balanced. Your assumption that you know everything is based on knowing nothing.

 

Balanced? Interestig word. I assume you mean that by having libertarian socialist views that they cannot be balanced?

 

Now not reading Orwell is knowing nothing?

[Chinahand]

 

LDV - a person has some money - they use it to employ some engineers and managers, who develop a product, and who get paid to do it, these employ some assembly workers who make the product, and who also get paid. Then a financial crisis comes along - and the product doesn't sell in sufficient numbers, doesn't make a profit, the company goes bankrupt. The person who invested the money has lost every penny - hasn't been paid a cent - the managers, engineers and the assembly workers have been paid the entire time. Just tell me - who has taken advantage of who?

[Sebrof]

You have a problem, LDV, because you have barely read anything. Had you done so, your outlook would be a little more balanced. Your assumption that you know everything is based on knowing nothing.

 

Balanced? Interestig word. I assume you mean that by having libertarian socialist views that they cannot be balanced?

 

Now not reading Orwell is knowing nothing?

 

 

See above. "you have barely read anything" is the problem. Orwell is just a small part of it.

 

S

[La_Dolce_Vita]

 

LDV - a person has some money - they use it to employ some engineers and managers, who develop a product, and who get paid to do it, these employ some assembly workers who make the product, and who also get paid. Then a financial crisis comes along - and the product doesn't sell in sufficient numbers, doesn't make a profit, the company goes bankrupt. The person who invested the money has lost every penny - hasn't been paid a cent - the managers, engineers and the assembly workers have been paid the entire time. Just tell me - who has taken advantage of who?

 

That's a a tough question because there are aspects of exploitation here as well, as the problem is with the system. Those getting paid a wage are being taking advantage of, it is the investor who owns the means for production (the capital to finance this) and compensates their work with a wage.

 

Everyone employed has been 'taken advantage of' by the impact of the failure of the system by losing their jobs.

 

The investor has lost his money,he has suffered from the crisis. But he hasn't been taken advantage of.

 

Balanced? Interestig word. I assume you mean that by having libertarian socialist views that they cannot be balanced?

 

Oh come on, please explain this one. What is this issue of balance.

[Sebrof]

Balanced? Interestig word. I assume you mean that by having libertarian socialist views that they cannot be balanced?

 

Oh come on, please explain this one. What is this issue of balance.

 

Very few issues in life are wholly cut and dried. Take the Israeli problem, for instance. You may consider them to be wrong in many ways, but you also know that there are wrongs on the other side, too. It's not as black and white as HAMAS or the Israeli government would like you to believe. To reach a workable solution, you will have to deal with both sides, and address their concerns. You know instinctively and rationally that the air-strikes and the suicide bombs are not the answer.

 

What you have is a person with a balanced view - yours - surrounded by people with unbalanced views - extremists. They can only see one side of the problem. The suicide bombers chant verses from the Koran while the Israelis mumble over the Torah.

 

What distinguishes you from them?

 

a Knowledge - based on a study of the positions of both sides, and

 

b Disinterest - you are neither a Palestinian nor an Israeli, and you are not chained to the views of one side or the other.

 

You have balance.

 

Now take a certain anarchist in Salford. He reads only the propaganda of his own "religion", and refuses to contemplate reading anything else. He can't admit that his views could ever be wrong - all the faults are with the other side.

 

He doesn't have balance.

 

And before you accuse me or anybody else of being capitalist running dogs, lickspittles of the boss class, read a few of our posts on the subject of the credit crunch. Most of us are appalled by what has happened, and only too well aware of the shortcomings in the system. Furthermore, many of us have also harboured views like yours before we realised that life wasn't amenable to facile pigeon-holing. This generally happened when we were about sixteen or seventeen, so you have some catching up to do.

 

Basically, LDV, until you read what the other side has to say, your views wil be as worthless as those of Bin Laden or Dick Cheney.

 

S

[WilDDog]

So when are they going on strike then?