Lao Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 did you write all that yourself? no my mum helped me. (and i copy and pasted the george orwell quote and the "suggest you read 1984" bit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 Suggest you read 1984. In high school i was investigated for my GCSE coursework on Orwell's 1984 as it was assumed that i had a parent do it for me as it "was too well written" i was grilled for ages and had to submit work on another book so that they could compare the two to see if the style matched. Later my English teacher entered 1984 coursework into a contest but it was returned stating that i had left the confines of the original assignment and that there was too much unsupported conjecture. but if you feel that i have something to gain from reading it again I'll put it on my list. i wouldn't get offended by my earlier post it was good of you to point out that this is happening, Orwell himself said "My recent novel [1984] is NOT intended as an attack on Socialism or on the British Labour Party (of which I am a supporter) but as a show-up of the perversions ... which have already been partly realized in Communism and Fascism. ...The scene of the book is laid in Britain in order to emphasize that the English-speaking races are not innately better than anyone else and that totalitarianism, if not fought against, could triumph anywhere. We should always be ready to oppose totalitarianism i don't want to be a drone controlled by the state any more than you but we must be rational in our approach to these things. Orwell wrote 1984 in opposition to totalitarianism but after his death it was used specifically to drum up anti socialist and anti communist sentiment. Now writers use his work as the ultimate logical fallacy. Just because some article says 1984 we shouldn't all assume that our rights and freedoms are being trampled. There is no data for debate in that article either for or against. I personally feel that cameras in pedestrianized areas are more intrusive than computers than record my travel. I wasn't offended by your earlier post. Perhaps the problem with 1984 is that it covers what happens AFTER dictatorship has been imposed through surveillance and other means. What would be good to have is a novel charting the process towards dictatorship, not by revolution, but by a thousand little cuts. As I posted elsewhere, each little incremental step seems harmless in itself, but eventually we will wake up to find ourselves prisoners. It's this creeping process that concerns me, but some people seem to be entirely happy to sleepwalk into the state's cold embrace. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lao Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 i find your post to be very rational, far more so than that article. Could you describe how this database could affect my life in a negative way? if i am not a drugs mule, immigrant smuggler or terrorist would it affect me at all? i would fully support any movement that wanted to safeguard such information or act as a buffer between the state and the information. I am not on the side of state controlled lives, i just enjoy a well reasoned discussion and that article was not well reasoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Before you get too excited don't forget the UK is having the worst recession of any major country. It is incumbent on Gordon and Co to create jobs. What better way than to generate masses of data on what seat LDV sat in on his last 10 flights and what credit cards he used? Goodness, all one then has to do is to start asking meaningful questions about how many red haired people, using RBS credit cards, booked seat 48F on flights to New Zealand and you have the makings of a new national industry. Think of the jobs and stop grumbling. And then they have to spend several billion on the automated interface with Identity Cards - perfect it will last for generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronague Ram Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Just when did anyone produce ID to the Steam Packet when booking travel? All well and good to say that customs have the passenger manifests, but Mr F.Bloggs could be anybody - especially if paid in person by cash. This system will almost certainly involve proof of identity. All the people who bleat on to complain about how easy it is for the criminally minded to move about will presumably see this for what it is - crime prevention and not 'big brother'. If anyone thinks that the government will spend time simply monitoring your movements for a laugh or skeet (or any other irrelevant purpose) then they would clearly view the television series 'Spooks' as a documentary! Show evidence of where the harm is and maybe the argument against would stand up better, but I for one think those berating the government for puting basic checks in place are probably hiding something or consider they may be capable of doing something they wouldn't want to be caught at and are worth monitoring anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lao Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 are probably hiding something or consider they may be capable of doing something they wouldn't want to be caught at and are worth monitoring anyway! i used to think the same thing, but if you ask around lots of people dont want to be monitored, and many of them can't give a satisfactory reason why, some could be criminal other mistrustful but that could hardly account for the number of people who are really against this kinda thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Just when did anyone produce ID to the Steam Packet when booking travel? All well and good to say that customs have the passenger manifests, but Mr F.Bloggs could be anybody - especially if paid in person by cash. This system will almost certainly involve proof of identity. All the people who bleat on to complain about how easy it is for the criminally minded to move about will presumably see this for what it is - crime prevention and not 'big brother'. If anyone thinks that the government will spend time simply monitoring your movements for a laugh or skeet (or any other irrelevant purpose) then they would clearly view the television series 'Spooks' as a documentary! Show evidence of where the harm is and maybe the argument against would stand up better, but I for one think those berating the government for puting basic checks in place are probably hiding something or consider they may be capable of doing something they wouldn't want to be caught at and are worth monitoring anyway! I have just booked a ticket on a Hebridean ferry. They don't want ID so why should the Steam Packet? What damn business is it to anyone else where I travel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 All the people who bleat on to complain about how easy it is for the criminally minded to move about will presumably see this for what it is - crime prevention and not 'big brother'. If anyone thinks that the government will spend time simply monitoring your movements for a laugh or skeet (or any other irrelevant purpose) then they would clearly view the television series 'Spooks' as a documentary! Show evidence of where the harm is and maybe the argument against would stand up better, but I for one think those berating the government for puting basic checks in place are probably hiding something or consider they may be capable of doing something they wouldn't want to be caught at and are worth monitoring anyway! Yes, but that is wheeling out the same old argument about whether you have something to hide. There shouldn't be any need to prove whether you have anything to hide or not when you pass from one nation to another in the same manner in which you need to prove who you are to travel from Douglas to Peel. Besides the focus seems less about crime PREVENTION but rather the supposed motivation for punishing those who have committed crimes, which quite a different matter. And nobody who criticises such a step believes that the government wants this information for a laugh or for a bit of skeet. I think rather the government needs to elaborate far more on how exactly it will prevent crime, and more interestingly, terrorism. But it is a case of 'Big Brother' because the state is taking greater and greater steps to monitor people, innocent or not. And the vast majority will be innocent. The issue is about why the state has the right to hold such information in the first place. Why can I not pass from one country to another without checks? Or less, why does my information need to be stored centrally by the government? And even less, why ten years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lao Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Yes, but that is wheeling out the same old argument about whether you have something to hide. rather like the paralleling of every government decision to Orwell's 1984 perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman2 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 they already have your travel info when you buy the tickets!!, customs already keep a record as can be seen from many documentaries where they dig out when and where and how often couriers/smugglers come and go along with all the honest folks. it's nothing new, just now someone wants us all to think about it in a bad way... this guy is right .. these attention seeking leaks are a divertary tactic to try and shift our mass attention away from other areas of government failure. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Yes, but that is wheeling out the same old argument about whether you have something to hide. rather like the paralleling of every government decision to Orwell's 1984 perhaps? Perhaps, but I don't think it derails the point of the article. It sensationalises it, however, I believe it does make people recognise where things COULD go. Problem is that lots of blinkered fools still think all the myriad measures taken by the government relating to surveillance are perfectly fine because they CAN have an effect on these things rather than questioning what the costs are. And it has got to the stage where on different fronts there are so many measures that will restrict civil liberties and own perceptions of our freedom yet will not prevent crime or terrorism to any or any great degree. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman2 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 did you write all that yourself? no my mum helped me. (and i copy and pasted the george orwell quote and the "suggest you read 1984" bit) you maybe smart but your lacking humour.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman2 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Just when did anyone produce ID to the Steam Packet when booking travel? All well and good to say that customs have the passenger manifests, but Mr F.Bloggs could be anybody - especially if paid in person by cash. This system will almost certainly involve proof of identity. All the people who bleat on to complain about how easy it is for the criminally minded to move about will presumably see this for what it is - crime prevention and not 'big brother'. If anyone thinks that the government will spend time simply monitoring your movements for a laugh or skeet (or any other irrelevant purpose) then they would clearly view the television series 'Spooks' as a documentary! Show evidence of where the harm is and maybe the argument against would stand up better, but I for one think those berating the government for puting basic checks in place are probably hiding something or consider they may be capable of doing something they wouldn't want to be caught at and are worth monitoring anyway! spam is just one harmful bloody waste of time effect of massive databases.. medical treatments and decisions would be made judged on your life style even more than they are now etc.. harmless my fuckin arse.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titanic Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Frankly, who cares If any sad case wants to track my movements, then please feel free.... There is more to life than worrying about who is watching who. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Frankly, who cares If any sad case wants to track my movements, then please feel free.... There is more to life than worrying about who is watching who. If you let this one slip, what will be the next step, and the step? What about future generations who are brought up in a country where they think the state should be doing these things. The problem we have is that we actually think it is acceptable for the UK government to have ability to hold such information, never mind what they are using it for. this guy is right .. these attention seeking leaks are a divertary tactic to try and shift our mass attention away from other areas of government failure. .. Why would the media do that? If they lackeys of the government, they would do the opposite, not compound the failure of government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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