Sebrof Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 There has been a recent case where a relative, against his wishes, had to represent an ill person in court. They both ended up getting their houses arrested to pay the other sides bill. All this has yet to be made public but it is quite amazing what goes on in the law courts of the Isle of Man. I find it hard to believe that a person can be forced to defend another. And if he is acting for the other person, he is not a party to the case, so cannot be made to pay costs. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 There were seven facts in my post, all of which were true. You can't, in English (as opposed to Slimspeak) use the word "neither" in connection with seven statements, only with two. I only quoted two points you dim twot. 1 It's a different legal system. Are you saying it's not?2 There are different laws. Are you saying there are not? 3 The gov licences advocates. Are you saying they don't? Anyone can call himself an advocate? 4 The gov regulates advocates. Are you saying they don't? They can't strike them off if they misbehave? 5 The gov doesn't control foreign lawyers? Are you saying the Manx gov controls lawyers in the UK, for instance? UK lawyers would be surprised to hear that. 6 The gov doesn't know if foreign lawyers are qualified. Are you saying they know exactly who are the qualified lawyers in Kazakhstan, for instance? 7 The gov doesn't know if foreign lawyers are in good standing? Are you saying that if a Russian lawyer gets struck off today the IOM will know about it? 1. I didn't disagree with this point 2. I didn't disagree with this point 3. The gov doesn't license advocates, the law society grants membership to the manx bar. 4. The gov doesn't regulate advocates, the law society controls membership to the manx bar. 5. The gov doesn't control foreign lawyers, the law society does however allow foriegn lawyers temporary membership to the manx bar so they can practice here. 6. Only if they want to practice here, which was the original point. 7. See 6. 1 Manx lawyers aren't licensed to practice. This is so stupid that I won't even bother to answer it. Just see your next statement. Why don't you link me the licensing law sebrof? 2 Foreign lawyers... must (and do) receive temporary membership to represent a local case. This contradicts your previous statement by accepting that lawyers DO have to have a licence to practice here. And by obliging foreign lawyers to have "temporary membership" - ie a licence - the gov has converted them into licensed Manx lawyers on a temporary basis. Membership to the manx bar isn't a license, and it isn't issued by the government. Why do you bother, Slim? Because educating the deeply stupid is a hobby of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Because educating the deeply stupid is a hobby of mine. Where do you find the time to do all that reading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 The reality Advocates licences are issued by the Governor after a student lawyer who has a degree and already qualified in England, normally, has passed Manx Exams set by external examiners. The Law Society then approves membership, without which you cannot practice. So the Society does not actually govern advocate status. I can think of one instance where the Society refused to allow membership but when thereatened with proceedings backed down. In effect the final decision would be Deemster 1. Temporary Advocates licences are nothing to do with the Society but are determined by the Deemsters with an appeal to the Judge of Appeal. Allowing a Scots, English or Northern Irish barrister to apear here is governed by a number of matters set out in staute. Lack of available Manx advocates, ie we have all refused or through conflict of interest in amulti party case are unable to take case on, complexity and specialsit knowledge, ie a case where Manx advocates do not have expertise or mega cases where we would not have the resources. The Society is not even asked its opinion, but the other parties in the case are and can, and do, express opinions. Regulation The Society does not deal with complaints and breaches and discipline. That is done by the Advocates DisciplinaryTribunal which is appointed by Government and has lay representation and a society member upon it. The Society does enesure adherence with Bye Laws and professional standards and on going training and compliance with KYC, anti money laundering and if an advocate were in default might prosecute him/her at the ADT Foriegn Lawyers practising here are registered with the General Registry. They can join the Society but it has no regulatory role, neither does the Registry. This was highlighted by the recent IMF visit. It is being examined a nd a solution examined. Foreign Registered lawyers practising in IOM are subject to discipline in their home territory foracts here and also in ceratin circumstances by the ADT I am licensed by the Governor and a member of the IOM Law Society, to practise I have to be both. The only things a manx Advocate can do, which no one else can do and charge for is convey land sign court pleadings appear in court otherwise anyone can give "legal advice" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 I take it your in the Legal system, if so why do the legal profesion on the Island charge a great deal more than those that operate in the UK and why the courts prevent defendants or plaintif from using UK advocates in Manx courts. Yes Im an advocate You can find advocates who work for £150 per hour and others who charge £500. Depends on field they work in. Charges are not any different to England, we have some advocates who do small town law and others who dio city law, Always shop around, always ask for an estimate, we have to give one, anyone who refuses breaches the law and always check that the advocate you choose is the right one for the job, ie don't go to a plumber to do an electricians work As IOM is a separate country with separate lasw and legal system it the same question as why can't a french lawyer appear for an english client in a court in London. Why would you want that and why would you think they were better quaified With nearly 250 advocates the expertise on IOM is actaully very good, wuth at least 10 or 15, maybe 20 who would qualify as QC's in England Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 It's a different legal system with different laws. Furthermore, the Manx government licences and regulates Manx advocates. They have no control over foreign lawyers, and no means of knowing whether they are qualified or in good standing. S what makes you think local lawyers have a good standing??? there is one i know of that is without doubt a tax dodging crook who 'invents' bills for customers claiming to be in a meeting regarding your case while on holiday in the sticks of foreign countries. Report him to the ADT OFT have forms See my commenst about foreign lawyers practising here who are registered but not locally regulated. The latter is on its way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
When Skies Are Grey Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Slim and Sebrof sitting in a tree....... You guys don't half keep me entertained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Slim and Sebrof sitting in a tree.......You guys don't half keep me entertained. John, I doubt doubt you're right, but that's not really what this document says: http://www.iomlawsociety.co.im/pdfs/qualifying.pdf The process could definately be presented better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 As IOM is a separate country with separate lasw and legal system it the same question as why can't a french lawyer appear for an english client in a court in London. Why would you want that and why would you think they were better quaified Erroneous comparison. French law is based entirely on written law first codified by Napoleon, unlike English Law which depends heavily on custom and precedent, and Manx Law which mostly relies on the custom and precedent of English Law. In France there is an entirely different legal system for disputes involving the government. There is very little difference between English and Manx administrative law, the laws governing English and Manx police, or even English and Manx court procedure. The role of a judge in France is quite different to that of an English judge or Manx Deemster. French judges take a far more active role in both investigations and the actual case. The jury system in Manx courts is exactly the same as that in English courts, but in place of juries the French have tribunals composed of legal professionals. As I understand it, an English solicitor can practice law in Scotland, Ireland, Spain, Singapore, half of Africa and plenty of other places by simply filling out the forms and paying the law society fees. The Isle of Man however, is different. We have a few very, very, special quirks that only an advocate can truly understand - could you tell us a bit more about what makes Manx Law so unique and distinct from English Law please John. I'm not involved in Law, so forgive me if I have misrepresented the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 wuth at least 10 or 15, maybe 20 who would qualify as QC's in England That simply isn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 wuth at least 10 or 15, maybe 20 who would qualify as QC's in England That simply isn't true. Another bald assertion, with no supporting evidence or argument. Did you go to school with Slim, perchance? If you want to be taken seriously, state your case. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 John, I doubt doubt you're right, (Sic) I'll take that as an apology. but that's not really what this document says:http://www.iomlawsociety.co.im/pdfs/qualifying.pdf That document is not the law, Slim; it's about how to qualify as a lawyer. Different things. The process could definately be presented better. If you mean the document you linked to could have been presented better, then you have to remember its target readership - people with the brain to become an advocate. If they had been aiming it at you, it would have been written on coloured wooden blocks, one letter at a time. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Slim and Sebrof sitting in a tree....... You guys don't half keep me entertained. Actually, it's Slim's tree. I only go there to take him his bananas. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Incidentally, do you guys have any views about the budget? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Another bald assertion, with no supporting evidence or argument. Did you go to school with Slim, perchance?If you want to be taken seriously, state your case. Quoted for irony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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