Treating Gay People

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Which has nothing to do with the articly you linked. You're implying it's anti-gay, it isn't, it's just helping those that wish to change. It could be helping them stop gambling, or smoking or recover from masturbation addiction. Nobody is saying wanking is bad, but some people might not

want to do it any more. Their choice, not yours. You're presumably gay, hopping up and down ready to take offence at something that isn't there, and being totally irrational as a result.

 

I am trying to understand your thinking on this. Are you saying that what this article is referring to, i.e. trying to help gay people suppress their feelings and become heterosexual, is not anti-gay? Do you not realise that the motivation behind people wanting to change their sexuality is a product of homophobia and that any idea of treatment is itself a reflection of homophobia?

Ask yourself why there aren't similar desires to change from straight to gay.

 

Neither is being a pedophile, would you argue against counselling to help with that too?

 

Of course not, but paedophile is a very different matter. Paedophilia is destructive and is motivated by a desire for power over vulnerable people. Homosexuality on the other hand is simply a counterpart to heterosexuality but suffers from prejudiced ideas that have surrounded it.

[immortalpuppet]

you are only gay if you push back or turn the light on.

[Slim]

I am trying to understand your thinking on this. Are you saying that what this article is referring to, i.e. trying to help gay people suppress their feelings and become heterosexual, is not anti-gay? Do you not realise that the motivation behind people wanting to change their sexuality is a product of homophobia and that any idea of treatment is itself a reflection of homophobia?

Ask yourself why there aren't similar desires to change from straight to gay.

 

I don't know if there is or isn't desires to be gay, I've no experience of that. If there isn't similar services, it suggests a lack of demand. That's not anti-gay though. I don't think the motivation is strictly homophobia at all, there might be many reasons someone wants to change.

 

Of course not, but paedophile is a very different matter. Paedophilia is destructive and is motivated by a desire for power over vulnerable people. Homosexuality on the other hand is simply a counterpart to heterosexuality but suffers from prejudiced ideas that have surrounded it.

 

I don't agree, isn't' a paedophile simply someone who has a sexual preference for children? That's just like being gay, except being gay is legal. Where's your anarchy now?

[oldmanxfella]

Again it shows how much prejudice there really is.

 

I think that if you analyse what the article says its religious nutters at the bottom of all of this and there will always be religious nutters at the bottom of any prejudice.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I don't know if there is or isn't desires to be gay, I've no experience of that. If there isn't similar services, it suggests a lack of demand. That's not anti-gay though. I don't think the motivation is strictly homophobia at all, there might be many reasons someone wants to change.

 

Yes, quite, there is no demand for straight people to want to be gay because being straight is not considered by many to be bad, negative, or not normal. There might be many specific personal reasons why someone would want to go from gay from straight but I would argue that they all originate from prejudice. Why is it an issue for these people to have homosexual feelings?

 

I don't agree, isn't' a paedophile simply someone who has a sexual preference for children? That's just like being gay, except being gay is legal. Where's your anarchy now?

 

Well no, I don't tend to understand paedophilia as being a sexual orientation just like the others. But I have no idea where anarchy is, what's your point?

[theman]

I don't know if there is or isn't desires to be gay, I've no experience of that. If there isn't similar services, it suggests a lack of demand. That's not anti-gay though. I don't think the motivation is strictly homophobia at all, there might be many reasons someone wants to change.

 

Yes, quite, there is no demand for straight people to want to be gay because being straight is not considered by many to be bad, negative, or not normal. There might be many specific personal reasons why someone would want to go from gay from straight but I would argue that they all originate from prejudice. Why is it an issue for these people to have homosexual feelings?

 

I don't agree, isn't' a paedophile simply someone who has a sexual preference for children? That's just like being gay, except being gay is legal. Where's your anarchy now?

 

Well no, I don't tend to understand paedophilia as being a sexual orientation just like the others. But I have no idea where anarchy is, what's your point?

 

psychiatrists and therapists how did fook do i get to be one of them? as for paedophilia gayness and all that crap. it's just animal instincts look http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4255289.stm

L V D i dont understand how you think what do you do for a living ?. have you got a miss's & kids.. this link will point L V D right http://www.narth.com/docs/debate2.html

[theman]

lol i love the power of the tinternet lol

[Alex]

Comparing being gay to having a sexual preference for children? Come on Slim, what are you talking about?

 

(Have I read that wrong, or did he just say that?)

[Slim]

Comparing being gay to having a sexual preference for children? Come on Slim, what are you talking about?

(Have I read that wrong, or did he just say that?)

 

I'm simply saying that they're both sexual preferences. One is illegal, while one is legal in some countries. If you can change one sexual preference though counselling, why not the other?

[Lonan3]

Psychiatrists can probably perform a valuable service for those who are uncertain of their sexual orientation - but only if they begin from a neutral stance and assist their subjects to discover the realities of their feelings for themselves.

Having said that, I am far from convinced that it is always a simple matter of genetic inheritance with no element of 'choice' being available. It is entirely possible that there are people whose early sexual experiences led them to believe that they were homosexual or heterosexual and who have since become uncertain about the way they feel. In these cases, once again it is possible that psychiatry/psychology may help them - by helping them to discover their own truths, but never by trying to direct them towards a particular view.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I'm simply saying that they're both sexual preferences. One is illegal, while one is legal in some countries. If you can change one sexual preference though counselling, why not the other?

 

Therapists can help suppress feelings and methods can be taken to prevent you acting on your desires. Though like I saying about paedophilia, it isn't just a sexual preference given the need for power that paedophilies crave, which is something I assume that counselling can help with. Paedophiles are mainly heterosexual men.

 

Why not the other? Well there isn't anything wrong in being gay or having homosexual feelings. Rather than people embracing or accepting their feelings people are ignorant of homosexuality and have negative attitudes and beliefs about it, so the result is people wanting to change.

 

In any case, all that is being done is suppressing feelings, and I think Chinahand is right in criticising the article in that treatment may actually be advice and methods of dealing with feelings, not suppressing them. The idea that you can change sexuality seems to be something of a myth. Sexuality certainly isn't something you can change with a bit of counselling.

[Slim]

In any case, all that is being done is suppressing feelings, and I think Chinahand is right in criticising the article in that treatment may actually be advice and methods of dealing with feelings, not suppressing them. The idea that you can change sexuality seems to be something of a myth. Sexuality certainly isn't something you can change with a bit of counselling.

 

I don't understand the 'need for power' and the claim that pedophiles are mainly heterosexual is just daft. Most people are hetrosexual, so most pedophiles will be too.

 

To me it's quite simple, homosexuality and pedophilia are both a sexual desire issue. One is legal but one isn't. It's interesting to see the way you rationalise these things though particularly given your thoughts about the law in other threads. I chose pedophilia to illustrate my point but it could be any sexual preference, legal or otherwise, eg sadism, asphyxiation, exhibitionism, or whatever.

 

It's all about sexual preference to me. You seem to be elevating homosexuality to something else, presumably because you are homosexual. That's a pretty self centered view in my opinion. What else is homosexuality than sexual preference?

[Chinahand]

I really think much of this topic is such a simplification of the clinical reality as to be basically worthless.

 

Another example - a guy who has been raised a fundamentalist christian - who's supressed his sexuality and been tormented by it - bloody hell its Ted Haggard.

 

He deconverts from this religion and seeks counselling - I would fully expect him to recieve help to "become" gay - in other words fully understand his sexuality. In fact I imagine a significant amount of a psychologists work load in this area is helping people who have been in the closet accept their sexuality - this type of case might even a majority of the caseload of a psychologist specializing in this area - its nothing like the cliche of psychologists working to make people straight because that is the dominant sexuality as parts of this thread seem to be claiming.

 

Sure there are Christian organizations which go out with quite the opposite intention - to surpress sexuality - and that is what is being criticized in the article, but that is totally different from someone going to a psychologist because they've experimented and aren't certain if they are more comfortable accepting a new sexual identity or not.

 

So much of this argument is created by the Christian attitude that homosexuality is sinful and a choice. That word choice is such a simplistic word. Acceptance may be a slightly better word - and my feelings are that some people, though they may have ambiguous sexual feelings, can live without mental torment within one sexuality - sure in a different set of circumstances they might be able to live in another - but that is the point the circumstances are complex and can need help working out.

 

Other people cannot do that - there is no way they can accept a change to their sexuality and if they do so they feel traumatized. I imagine that most such people are people pretending to be straight, but who are in fact gay, but I do not think that is exclusively so - a person may have experimented - become emersed in a gay sexuality and then realised this isn't their true sexual identity. Understanding that wouldn't be easy and they would propably end up seeing a psychologist.

 

I think most psychologists understand these issues and work sensitively to deal with them - its nothing like enforcing dominant sexual paradims or whatever, or saying hey sexualities a choice just go for it, or saying your sexuality is totally inflexible and will be either gay or straight in all circumstances and times. Its complex and can't be summed up in a one page newspaper report or a few posts on MF!

[Chinahand]

Slim - I very much agree with the general direction you are going, but think you've got to be very careful that what you are saying isn't taken out of context. People are simply not getting your point.

 

Sexuality is massively culturally complex - Antinous became Hadrian's lover at the age of 14. He desperately wanted to remain pre-pubesent so their relationship could continue in a socially acceptable way - ie in ancient Rome homosexual pedeaphilia was a social norm.

 

If clinical psychologists existed then they could have been writing long theses on the positive psychological effects this caused in children through the love and sense of belonging such a social norm created - I know they are writing such papers on young warriors giving fallacio (can't spell!) to older ones in Papua New Guinea.

 

BUT in our social norms such behaviours are massively damaging - much of the damage is created within the cultural milleu - though not all of it - there are disease and physical affects that are also vitally important.

 

I believe you are absolutely right to call out our young anarchist on this - but at the same time don't make yourself out to be in favour of paedophillia, or equating homosexuality with paedophillia!

 

Edited to better explain the last sentence.

[Slim]

I believe you are absolutely right to call out our young anarchist on this - but at the same time don't make yourself out to be in favour of paedophillia, or equating homosexuality with paedophillia!

 

I can see you understand what I'm getting at China. I'm certainly not in favour of pedophilia, and I'm not comparing the moral values of homosexuality to it either. I'm just saying they're all sexual preferences, and if you can potentially change one, you can change them all.