Yanks Take On The Pirates

[Chinahand]

Yesterday's WSJ had an intersting article on convoys - link - it reckoned that insurance wasn't an issue, but did agree that convoys were the best way forward.

 

I totally agree other than resorting to good old gun boat diplomacy and sinking every skiff in Somalia - that's what the victorians would have done - convoys are the best answer.

 

I don't see it creating such a delay - porting delays (and weather) will be just as significant, if not more so.

 

Politically its unacceptable to let piracy continue in this way - the only sad thing is that it will drive parts of Somalia back into subsitence - failed state, failed society. How to get them organized to improve their lot rather than the anarchic law of the gun they've got now?

 

Goodness knows! But allowing them to enrich their anarchy with kidnappings, piracy and ransom isn't acceptable - rather than killing them I'd rather drive their profession back to the stone age and hope they reorganise their society sustainably - but that isn't an easy proposition. Methinks the Navies of the world will be patrolling the area for a long time to come!

[Ringwraith]

Just lived there for half my life. If the waters are "once-rich", how come they are "teeming" now? Be consistent. The Somali and Swahili peoples have never done more than subsistence fishing, so claiming they have been deprived is absurd.

 

The waters are teeming with edible fish, you denied that there were even edible fish there - and you've lived there half your life! That is why the waters are now being invaded by foreign fishing fleets, who have rammed and destroyed local fishing boats and plundered the fish stocks.

 

Once rich, as in a once rich 'resource' and food source for the 'Somali people' you idiot!

 

Of course the Somali people have been deprived, both of food and export possibilities, not to mention the other processing and support industries that surround any fishing industry - but maybe you are just too dense to appreciate the possibilities, even though you've lived there half your life!

 

By the way, there are no lobster. Perhaps you meant the clawless crawfish. As opposed to the clueless Ringwraith.

 

Yes there are lobster, they are in the deeper waters, but you probably think that they can't be got at so perhaps don't mean anything to the Somali people - perhaps they don't even deserve to benefit from them as a potentially valuable resource? Maybe you are forgetting about the collaboration the Somalians had with the Russians, using commericallly sized fishing vessels back in the 1970's?

 

And what evidence do you have that the East African coast has been affected by nuclear waste? Not saying you are wrong about the nuclear angle, but you aren't very clued up about tropical fishing.

Do your own research you lazy git.

So there isn't any evidence. Suspected as much.

 

S

 

There is plenty of evidence, not just for nuclear but also other highly toxic wastes, but if you can't even use Google (which is now a strong possibility considering you think there are no edible fish in Somali waters - even after having lived there half your life) I don't think I can help you find it.

[Chinahand]

Cough

Edited to add http://soma-fish.org/

[Ringwraith]

Cough

Edited to add http://soma-fish.org/

 

 

You see Sebrof, Chinahand is a great Googler, albeit a massive spoilsport!

[Tempus Fugit]

MR report

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I totally agree other than resorting to good old gun boat diplomacy and sinking every skiff in Somalia - that's what the victorians would have done - convoys are the best answer.

 

I don't see it creating such a delay - porting delays (and weather) will be just as significant, if not more so.

 

I find it difficult to imagine how convoying could be set-up. If ships are leaving different ports at different times they would be required to meet at some rendezvous point before passing adjacent to the horn. Would this not be difficult to organise and cause delays?

 

Politically its unacceptable to let piracy continue in this way - the only sad thing is that it will drive parts of Somalia back into subsitence - failed state, failed society. How to get them organized to improve their lot rather than the anarchic law of the gun they've got now?

 

But the Somali lands are not being sustained by piracy. This is a relatively recent phenomenon and in many parts of the former Somalia it is arguable that the people are doing better for themselves than when it had a state.

[Sebrof]

The waters are teeming with edible fish, you denied that there were even edible fish there

 

Sorry to interrupt your little tirade, but where did I say that?

 

Coming to what you said:

 

"For years now their once rich waters have been plundered by foreign fishing fleets, depriving them of a valuable resource and food source."

 

So if the waters are still teeming with fish today, why are they "once-rich" (which means no longer rich)? And if the waters ARE teeming with fish, how are the locals being deprived? Who is preventing them from fishing?

 

Your contempt for facts and logic does rather spoil your argument. Now go and lie down before you are overcome by apoplexy.

 

S

[Sebrof]

Cough

Edited to add http://soma-fish.org/

 

 

You see Sebrof, Chinahand is a great Googler, albeit a massive spoilsport!

 

Where in that website is there any support for any of your wild claims?

 

S

[Chinahand]

Sebrof, you are a great stomper on people - make you feel big? Ringwraith's gist is, I think, clear even to a pedantic knit picker like you - the territorial waters of Somalia are being fished and polluted by outsiders. If Somalia had a functioning state it would be able to gain income by selling fishing rights in its EEZ - the example of the Falklands spring to mind - it would also be able to control dumping and stop outsiders damaging the ecosytems it could gain an income from. Are you really wanting to fag up a thread doubting this? - go pick a fight with Knoxville rather than stomping on people raising perfectly sensible counterpoints.

 

Oh and spiny lobsters are 1/2 way down my first link.

[Ringwraith]

Sorry to interrupt your little tirade, but where did I say that?

 

Coming to what you said:

 

"For years now their once rich waters have been plundered by foreign fishing fleets, depriving them of a valuable resource and food source."

 

So if the waters are still teeming with fish today, why are they "once-rich" (which means no longer rich)? And if the waters ARE teeming with fish, how are the locals being deprived? Who is preventing them from fishing?

 

Your contempt for facts and logic does rather spoil your argument. Now go and lie down before you are overcome by apoplexy.

 

S

 

I think you must have lived half your life in one of the contaminated coastal settlements, and it has done something to your brain.

 

I don't intend entering into a Slim / Sebrof style battle with you, if you can't read, understand or Google for yourself then there is no hope. My god, I'm actually feelling some empathy towards Slim - whatever next!

[Sebrof]

I don't intend entering into a Slim / Sebrof style battle with you, if you can't read, understand or Google for yourself then there is no hope. My god, I'm actually feelling some empathy towards Slim - whatever next!

 

And like Slim, you don't respond to points that put you on the spot.

 

Now perhaps we can discuss this rationally. As I originally pointed out, tropical waters are not particularly rich in fish; certainly much less so than colder waters with shallow sand banks, as found in the North Sea and off Newfoundland.

 

There has never been a proper commercial fishing industry based on the East African coast. Instead, there is quite a large fresh-water fishing industry, based on the lakes.

 

The habitat of the common lobster is in the cold waters of the North Atlantic and North Sea. Perhaps also in the Antarctic. Throughout the tropics there are only clawless crayfish, sometimes called spiny lobster, or rock lobster. If there are any true lobster off the East African coast they are yet to be found.

 

The website Chinahand quoted has a page on the current situation regarding the tiny Somali fishing industry. The page mentions various problems afflicting the industry. of which the most important is said to be local ignorance and indifference. Nowhere is foreign plunder mentioned (as far as I could see).

 

You seem very keen to blame foreigners for Somalia's problems. At what point do African nations become responsible for their own affairs, or must we forever continue to patronise them by blaming other people?

 

S

[Chinahand]

Nowhere is foreign plunder mentioned (as far as I could see).

 

You didn't even look to the bottom of the first link!

 

Oh well -

 

Somalia's coastal communities who eke marine resources are appealing to international community for help to keep foreign ships, which engage in illegal fishing out of their country's territorial waters. ... The illegal fishing along the Somali coastline heightened after the disintegration of the Horn of African country into clan-based states following the overthrow of communist dictator Siad Barre almost a decade ago.

 

Taking advantage of a lack of patrolling securities, the foreign ships use prohibited fishing methods like drift nets, dynamites, breaking coral reefs and destroying the coral habitats where lobsters and other coral fish live. According to Somali Fisheries Society and Somalia Marine Resource Management, which monitor the country's marine environment, the illegally fishing vessels stay away into deeper waters during the days but come closer to the shore at night. They apply their destructive fishing techniques, which reduce the local population's harvest and damage nets and traps set by local fishermen. ... the Ocean Training and Promotion (OTP) has collected information that more than 200 foreign vessels have since 1991, been engaged in illegal fishing in the Somali coastline.

 

The distant-water fishing vessels include those sailing under flags of conveniences such as China, France, Germany, Great Britain, Honduras, India, Italy, Japan, Kenya, Korea, Pakistan, Portugal, Saudi Arabia, Soviet Federation, Spain, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Thailand and Yemen had allegedly fished within 12 miles Somali waters. These vessels are in search of Dolphin fish, Grouper, Emperors, Tuna sp., Mackerel sp., Snapper, Swordfish, Shark sp. Herring and of course, other valuable in Somali coastal water species. Fig. 2 shows Yemani stern trawler un- fishing illegally within 5nm in Somali waters.

 

etc

etc

etc

[Ringwraith]

And like Slim, you don't respond to points that put you on the spot.

 

Now perhaps we can discuss this rationally. As I originally pointed out, tropical waters are not particularly rich in fish; certainly much less so than colder waters with shallow sand banks, as found in the North Sea and off Newfoundland.

 

There has never been a proper commercial fishing industry based on the East African coast. Instead, there is quite a large fresh-water fishing industry, based on the lakes.

 

The habitat of the common lobster is in the cold waters of the North Atlantic and North Sea. Perhaps also in the Antarctic. Throughout the tropics there are only clawless crayfish, sometimes called spiny lobster, or rock lobster. If there are any true lobster off the East African coast they are yet to be found.

 

The website Chinahand quoted has a page on the current situation regarding the tiny Somali fishing industry. The page mentions various problems afflicting the industry. of which the most important is said to be local ignorance and indifference. Nowhere is foreign plunder mentioned (as far as I could see).

 

You seem very keen to blame foreigners for Somalia's problems. At what point do African nations become responsible for their own affairs, or must we forever continue to patronise them by blaming other people?

 

S

 

 

You are an idiot Sebrof! As well as being too lazy to Google your own research, you can't even be bothered to click on and read links others provide for you.

 

You claim to have lived in Somalia for "half your life", yet you know nothing about the issues facing the coastal and fishing communities.

 

You have not put me on the spot Sebrof, far from it.

[Sebrof]

Slim to a Tee. You still haven't answered any of my questions, but instead are resorting to abuse.

 

There is no Somali fishing industry to speak of, just a few chaps with canoes, as described on your website. They are not in competition with the "foreign ships" because they can't go offshore more than a few miles. There are not a lot of fish in tropical waters, compared with cold ones, and it is nonsense to talk of them "teeming with fish". There are no lobster.

 

Dynamiting fish has been a problem on the coast for many years. Those responsible are invariably local fishermen.

 

Here is a quote showing how impartial this website is:

 

"the Somali fishermen pirates genuinely believe that they are protecting their fishing grounds (both 12-mile territorial and EEZ waters)."

 

When you leave school, travel the world and see for yourself how things work. You might then discover that not everything you read on the internet is true.

 

S

[Ringwraith]

Slim to a Tee. You still haven't answered any of my questions, but instead are resorting to abuse.

 

There is no Somali fishing industry to speak of, just a few chaps with canoes, as described on your website. They are not in competition with the "foreign ships" because they can't go offshore more than a few miles. There are not a lot of fish in tropical waters, compared with cold ones, and it is nonsense to talk of them "teeming with fish". There are no lobster.

 

Dynamiting fish has been a problem on the coast for many years. Those responsible are invariably local fishermen.

 

Here is a quote showing how impartial this website is:

 

"the Somali fishermen pirates genuinely believe that they are protecting their fishing grounds (both 12-mile territorial and EEZ waters)."

 

When you leave school, travel the world and see for yourself how things work. You might then discover that not everything you read on the internet is true.

 

S

 

 

Idiot!

 

6. RESOURCES AND FISHERIES IN SOMALIA

 

6.4. Deep-water lobster

 

An assessment of the dep-water lobster (Puerulus carinatus and Puerulus sewelli) resulting from a 30 day cruise on the F/V CUSMAAN GEEDI RAAGE concluded the overall biomass for these species as 639 tons and 1,094 tons respectively (Johnsen, 1984). During the cruise the catches ranged from about 100 to 400 kgs (whole weight) per haul of lobster. Another species Metanephrops andamanicus was also present in small amounts.

 

Separate biomass estimates were determined for each of the fishing grounds (Figure 9 and Table 9). This involved raising the mean catches per haul by the 'area of the ground/area covered per haul'. The efficiency of the trawl nets was assumed to be 100 percent.

 

The lobster were caught mainly in the depth range of 250 to 400 m. P. carinatus was generally caught South of 10°N and P. sewelli to the North of 8°N.

 

Commercial exploitation has been underway since 1973, involving both joint-venture arrangements (Somali-Soviet) and the licensing of foreign trawlers. The joint venture (Somalfish) ended in 1977 at which state some 1,150 tons (whole weight) of lobster (and 3,400 tons of fish) were being landed annually (Table 10). Subsequently, Somalia has acquired a small fleet of trawlers. The annual landings from these and licensed Italian vessels is claimed to have been about 10,000 tons of fish and 1,500 tons (whole weight) of lobster in 1981 (Pecker, 1982).

 

http://nlbif.eti.uva.nl/bis/lobsters.php?m...rten&id=169