Yanks Take On The Pirates

[Terse]

If Somalian pirates could hijack ships as well as you pair hijack threads, they'd never need to fish.

[P.K.]

Oh dear, once again Mr Saddo Sebrof fags up yet another thread nit-picking like mad to try and look as superior as possible. How very very tiresome he's becoming...

 

It's been said that the Somali clans now rob at sea because there's nothing left to rob on land. Though the Somali pirates were not forced into piracy, they have simply made their choice. They treat their captives well because they know us westerners will avoid using force if we can pay our way out. Because we value human life above all else including vulgar money. So they will avoid triggering an armed response as much as they can. This is at total variance to the "Somali way" of doing things such as using famine as a weapon. It's also become so easy as well. Fast craft, a few AK's and RPG's plus a GPS to make sure you can get home i.e. there's absolutely NO seamanship involved. Fishermen? I don't think so.

 

BUT this may change. There are various Islamic groups who would pay handsomely for US captives to humiliate. Should a US crew end up on the Somali mainland despite the trials and tribulations of 1993 I suspect the US would go in and kill as much as they could. This would mean open season on pirates as well. But then if you do nothing then nothing changes...

[La_Dolce_Vita]

They treat their captives well because they know us westerners will avoid using force if we can pay our way out. Because we value human life above all else including vulgar money. So they will avoid triggering an armed response as much as they can. This is at total variance to the "Somali way" of doing things such as using famine as a weapon.

 

I do not believe that Somalians have recognised a certain Western attitude to life that treats life as more important than anything else. It is not specific to the West but is shared throughout all cultures. My understanding would be that these pirates are just murderers. There is no 'Somali way' in the sense of a fundamentally different attitude to the value of life. I think this is an ignorant assessment of another culture.

[MilitantDogOwner]

I get the impression that Mr Supercilious Sebrof is an extremely sad character who can only boost what's left of his self esteem by lording it over anonymous internet forum posters. Just how sad is that...

 

Frankly I feel sorry for him, but Slim probably doesn't, but I can't blame Slim for that..

 

BTW MilitantDogBoner, Bowden was writing about Delta over ten years ago.

 

I always find it side splittingly hilarious when keyboard commandos try to make themselves look clever by making little changes to another users name slightly.

 

The fact that Bowden has been writing about Delta over ten years ago has no more to do with price of fish than Easter eggs.

 

He could of claimed to be the Queen of Sheba, it wouldn't of made it any more offical would it.

[MilitantDogOwner]

They treat their captives well because they know us westerners will avoid using force if we can pay our way out. Because we value human life above all else including vulgar money. So they will avoid triggering an armed response as much as they can. This is at total variance to the "Somali way" of doing things such as using famine as a weapon.

 

I do not believe that Somalians have recognised a certain Western attitude to life that treats life as more important than anything else. It is not specific to the West but is shared throughout all cultures. My understanding would be that these pirates are just murderers. There is no 'Somali way' in the sense of a fundamentally different attitude to the value of life. I think this is an ignorant assessment of another culture.

 

The Somali way is and has been for a very long time the 7.62 way = "If i have the strength/weapons to take it from, you its mine".

[Pragmatopian]

Seems like they've been picking on another set of pirates too:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8003799.stm

 

A court in Sweden has jailed four men behind The Pirate Bay (TPB), the world's most high-profile file-sharing website, in a landmark case.

 

The damages were awarded to a number of entertainment companies, including Warner Bros, Sony Music Entertainment, EMI, and Columbia Pictures.

[P.K.]

I always find it side splittingly hilarious when keyboard commandos try to make themselves look clever by making little changes to another users name slightly.

The fact that Bowden has been writing about Delta over ten years ago has no more to do with price of fish than Easter eggs.

He could of claimed to be the Queen of Sheba, it wouldn't of made it any more offical would it.

Looks like a Target Round. However MDB I can't claim the credit...

 

Well LDV, surely the reason the pirates are not murderers is as I have postulated? Because I can assure you the time I spent in SA convinced me that some cultures simply do not value human life at all. But yes I've never been to Somalia and so like all those others who haven't been there I can only go on the views of those who have. Probably much like yourself?

[Terse]

Wikipedia

"According to the Pastafarian belief system, pirates are "absolute divine beings" and the original Pastafarians"

 

Its a religious thing.

[Sebrof]

More crap & lies.....

S

 

You are a total prat Sebrof. You did deny the nuclear issue when you said -

 

“So there isn't any evidence. Suspected as much.”

 

To now quote something you said before the above statement just shows how desperate you are.

 

You claimed I was clueless, and that you had lived in Somalia half your life, and had real life knowledge, and that the Somalian seas are not teeming with edible fish, and there were just a few chaps in canoes – and there are no Lobsters.

 

You have now been thoroughly discredited on all these points, but you still try to make out that you didn’t even say these things.

 

You were wrong, completely wrong, you were also too lazy to do your own research, why should I provide it for you after you insulted me and my original post - which was perfectly true?

 

You are a very odd character, everything I have said has been verified, other posters have even drawn your attention to links detailing the issues.

 

I don’t believe that you can have lived in Somalia for half your life, and think that the coastline is more than 3,000 miles long, not know about the fishing industry, not know that the seas are teeming with edible fish AND Lobsters, not know about the toxic and nuclear waste dumping.

 

I believe you are a liar, I don’t believe you think your statements are true, you just make them up as you go along, and then as with all liars you flap around desperately when your lies are exposed, trying to backtrack, sidestep this way and that in order to save face and credibility, quite silly really.

 

Thank you very much for your contribution, Ringraith. I have learned a great deal from you.

 

S

[Tempus Fugit]

coastguards !

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Well LDV, surely the reason the pirates are not murderers is as I have postulated? Because I can assure you the time I spent in SA convinced me that some cultures simply do not value human life at all. But yes I've never been to Somalia and so like all those others who haven't been there I can only go on the views of those who have. Probably much like yourself?

 

No, not surely. I suspect that these men would not want to kill hostages, because they don't want to have deaths on their conscience AND they see no need to kill hostages. They are exploiting a human recognition of the value of life, but this is not a value that is specific to the western world.

 

It seems you are making assumptions about supposed differences in the extent to which life is valued by westerners and somalians. Where do these assumptions come from? How have westerners displayed that they hold life so dear and valued so highly? Western nations have a shocking history of warfare that continues up to the present.

[P.K.]

LDV, I really don't want anyone to do another Sebrof in this thread. Back in the nineties there was a coalition effort to feed a collapsed Somalia because the various warring (tribal or clan) factions were trying to control relief efforts to use famine as a weapon. The first to fall in a famine are the weak i.e. the very young and the very old. So no, I don't believe Somalian pirates are concerned about having the deaths of hostages on their consciences. All they want is easy money. That's got nothing whatever to do with the shocking history of western nations but everything to do with the recent history of Somalia. Time will tell...

[Chinahand]

I think LDV is unaware of the success western democratic society has had in expanding our in-group and pushing the out-group to the fringes.

 

His anarchist beliefs make him believe that in-group behaviour is natural and we can all be united in fraternity.

 

That view is hopelessly optimistic - humanity has always been indifferent to the out group and in extremis barbaric towards it.

 

Jared Diamond has a good example from his research in New Guinea - he'd always find the native groups he worked with incredibly cohesive - they practiced in-group solidarity to the extremes necesary to survive without technology in a harsh environment - but to an outsider - a rival - they were totally indifferent. He recounts how when two outsiders meet their first act is to discuss in detail whether they should kill each other or not.

 

Somalia creates in-group and out-group dynamics almost beyond anything I think we can comprehend living in the IOM.

 

A starving child, a dying oldster will be treated with total indifference - in fact quite the opposite - they will be used to gain advantage. And the comradeship of thieves will mean the band of bandits will not revolt even when some commit evil on a biblical scale.

 

I for one am massively glad that my society by monopolizing force and unifying law has deliberately expanded the in-group as wide as it can.

 

Somalia has no such advantage and is left with this human dichotomy creating wierd resonances with ideals of hospitality and protection to the honoured guest existing with barbarity towards the enemy and his child and nan.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

LDV, I really don't want anyone to do another Sebrof in this thread. Back in the nineties there was a coalition effort to feed a collapsed Somalia because the various warring (tribal or clan) factions were trying to control relief efforts to use famine as a weapon. The first to fall in a famine are the weak i.e. the very young and the very old. So no, I don't believe Somalian pirates are concerned about having the deaths of hostages on their consciences. All they want is easy money. That's got nothing whatever to do with the shocking history of western nations but everything to do with the recent history of Somalia. Time will tell...

 

All they want is easy money, fair enough, I am not disputing that. You refer to these warring factions and pirates as if they are the same people. Are they? Is the fact that Somalia has warlords, pirates, and simply people who are more powerful than others in society an indicator of how much value Somalian's afford life. I don't think so. And to say again, when you talk of Western societies there are examples where the powerful use conflict and warfare, but it would seem from your line of thinking that this would indicate that western societies do not value life much. Though you argue the opposite.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I think LDV is unaware of the success western democratic society has had in expanding our in-group and pushing the out-group to the fringes.

 

I may be unaware of some aspects, but I don't think I am. I am certainly aware of the effects of another aspect of western democratic societies, and those are what result from liberalism and nationalism. However, AN in-group has been expanded, that of the nation with the out-group being people of other nationalities. Whilst liberalism has emphasises individualistic tendencies. Individuals are 'in-groups' in themselves whilst all others comprise of the out-group to varying degrees depending upon the structure of power relationships in society.

 

I think it would be helpful if you could explain more about what you perceive to be this in-group and out-group in western 'democratic' societies. I perceive lots of in-groups and out-groups in society and think I understand some changes that have occurred through history. But I am puzzled by your statement that implies one in-group and one out-group.

 

His anarchist beliefs make him believe that in-group behaviour is natural and we can all be united in fraternity.

That view is hopelessly optimistic - humanity has always been indifferent to the out group and in extremis barbaric towards it.

 

I do believe that people of the world have the capability to 'unify' or find mutual understanding and respect for one another. I don't believe that

 

Somalia creates in-group and out-group dynamics almost beyond anything I think we can comprehend living in the IOM.

 

A starving child, a dying oldster will be treated with total indifference - in fact quite the opposite - they will be used to gain advantage. And the comradeship of thieves will mean the band of bandits will not revolt even when some commit evil on a biblical scale.

 

Yet there are parellels when you examine groups in western society and how they use power for their own purposes. In terms of the thieves it is the only the extent and possibly the savagery of which may not be matched by a small group in western society.

 

I for one am massively glad that my society by monopolizing force and unifying law has deliberately expanded the in-group as wide as it can.

 

Though of course this process establishes an in-group and out-group, those with power (and a belief that they SHOULD wield it) and those without. The monopolising force and legal system serves as the in-group that enforces the behaviour of all those outside of it.

 

Somalia has no such advantage and is left with this human dichotomy creating wierd resonances with ideals of hospitality and protection to the honoured guest existing with barbarity towards the enemy and his child and nan.

 

Yet again parellels are found with Western democratic societies. Look at the indifference of the killing of civilians that results from warfare and the barbarity of how the 'enemy' has been treated.