Gordon Brown Writes To The Isle Of Man . . .

[Gladys]

That is not new, but pin it, because it will be useful.

 

I still do not believe 'the letter' is the death knell, but how we respond to it may well be.

 

As I walked the dog along the railway lines this afternoon, I did think more and more about the mining communities rent asunder by Maggie and wondered if we would end up the same way.

 

There is a similarity here, but for Maggies' crusade it was against the working populace which she thought had way too much power; the current crusade is against the classic enemy of the left who, again, are considered as having way too much power (albeit that they were instrumental in their creation).

 

Perhaps it is time to assert ourselves and jump as Politician suggests. There again perhaps we should all view a porn movie and send the bill to No 10. (Childish, I know, but Gordon really is backed upagainst a wall on a number of fronts, depends on which one you want to give him max embarrassment.)

[theman]

oh mr "brown" oh what a "clown"!

you make me "BLOODY FROWN" mr brown

you couldn't run a "TOWN" OH MR BROWN your a clown.

FREEDOM!!!!!!

[manshimajin]

(Childish, I know, but Gordon really is backed upagainst a wall on a number of fronts, depends on which one you want to give him max embarrassment.)

Trouble is that when the likes of General Galtieri, Fransisco Franco, Gordon Brown et al were/are backed up against a wall they start looking for diversions - anything that distracts people will do.

 

The sort of wall that Nicolae Ceauşescu was backed up against might be a good one?

 

Would that someone in the UK Labour Party would say to Brown "when you're in a hole stop digging" - or alternatively "Gordon, now is the time we need FRIENDS".

[P.K.]

Anyone who thinks Brown et al are doing this to distract attention from the world-wide credit crunch should have a sore arse from talking too much. It hasn't even merited a mention in my Grauniad who are very anti tax evasion.

 

Politician sounding off always makes me smile as he makes me think of this.

[Declan]

General Galtieri, Fransisco Franco, Gordon Brown, Nicolae Ceauşescu

 

Oh grow up!

[Evil Goblin]

"Maggies' crusade it was against the working populace which she thought had way too much power" - not so, Gladys. If you believe this you have been suckered by ZanuLab's propaganda machine. Maggie's crusade was against over-powerful trades unions led by people intent on furthering political ambitions rather than looking after the best interests of their Members. Also against the then spreading influence of Trotskyists such as "Red Robbo" at Longbridge.

[Evil Goblin]

Declan - why the abuse. Manshimajin's comment is true enough - just look at the way ZanuLab has used spin e.g. the infamous "good day to bury bad news".

[P.K.]

"Maggies' crusade it was against the working populace which she thought had way too much power" - not so, Gladys. If you believe this you have been suckered by ZanuLab's propaganda machine. Maggie's crusade was against over-powerful trades unions led by people intent on furthering political ambitions rather than looking after the best interests of their Members. Also against the then spreading influence of Trotskyists such as "Red Robbo" at Longbridge.

And you think Gladys has been suckered???

 

Maggie destroyed the mining communities for what they did to Heath and no other reason. Now I'm no fan of "Brillo-hair" but unfortunately history has proven him right. Sure something had to be done but not at that social cost. I also recall "Red Robbo" being voted out - it's called democracy you know...

 

The thought of Cameron and his equally in-experienced bunch of chinless wonders trying to steer UK PLC through a recession makes my blood run cold..

[Evil Goblin]

"Maggies' crusade it was against the working populace which she thought had way too much power" - not so, Gladys. If you believe this you have been suckered by ZanuLab's propaganda machine. Maggie's crusade was against over-powerful trades unions led by people intent on furthering political ambitions rather than looking after the best interests of their Members. Also against the then spreading influence of Trotskyists such as "Red Robbo" at Longbridge.

And you think Gladys has been suckered???

 

Maggie destroyed the mining communities for what they did to Heath and no other reason. Now I'm no fan of "Brillo-hair" but unfortunately history has proven him right. Sure something had to be done but not at that social cost. I also recall "Red Robbo" being voted out - it's called democracy you know...

 

The thought of Cameron and his equally in-experienced bunch of chinless wonders trying to steer UK PLC through a recession makes my blood run cold..

PK - your final sentence gives the game away - you are obviously stuck in the past as an outdated "Class Warrior". Most working class people, like myself, have moved on and so should you. Take off your red-tinted spectacles and the reality just might make it through to you.

 

The unfortunate fact is that the mining communities (and many other industries) committed suicide over a long period of years when, under the leadership of politically ambitious Union leaders like Scargill, Scanlon and Co., and incompetent managements they persisted in industrial policies which made them hopelessly uncompetitative in the developing Global Economy. Without Thatcher's reforms the UK would have sunk into third world poverty, just like the Eastern European Communist States did. I don't ask you to approve of all Maggie did - just give credit where it is due.

[pongo]

Mrs Thatcher's govt certainly defeated the unions. They also destroyed a perfectly viable coal industry. Reforming an industry by destroying it could hardly be seen as a success by any standards.

 

It is also worth pointing out that they squandered the income from North Sea oil on tax cuts.

 

It is also worth remembering that for much of the time she was in power the economy was more or less out of control - there were runs on sterling, huge interest rate swings etc.

 

It was as bad as the 70s but for different reasons. No better, no worse. Just different.

[Evil Goblin]

Mrs Thatcher's govt certainly defeated the unions. They also destroyed a perfectly viable coal industry. Reforming an industry by destroying it could hardly be seen as a success by any standards.

 

It is also worth pointing out that they squandered the income from North Sea oil on tax cuts.

 

It is also worth remembering that for much of the time she was in power the economy was more or less out of control - there were runs on sterling, huge interest rate swings etc.

 

It was as bad as the 70s but for different reasons. No better, no worse. Just different.

OK, Pongo - I'll take the bait. Just how could a Government taking over in a near-bankrupt country have saved an industry which was producing coal at 2 or 3 times the price at which the stuff was being produced overseas?

 

It is also worth remembering that, despite all the beliefs to the contrary, under Thatcher and Major Government Expenditure, far from being cut, actually rose.

 

It seems that Pongo and yourself are fellow travellers - tax is good because Government knows far better how to spend your money than you do! Ah well, it would be a dull old world without its share of deluded people! And you won't get a better straight line than that for a while!

[manshimajin]

Oh grow up!

Oh, I'm far too old to grow up - grow outwards maybe but up no.

 

If you don't think politicians in tight corners look for 'popularist' diversions you probably still believe in the "Tooth Fairy".

 

...and if you seriously do not believe that Brown is in a tight corner you haven't been keeping up with the news. Just taking matters covered in the FT this morning - UK has a bigger budget deficit than any eurozone country (including Ireland!), a 30% devaluation of sterling verus the €, a 10% fall in UK exports, a little scandal with Damian McBride, Labour ministers perceived to be abusing expense allowances, warnings that global inflation is on the way due to overspending on fiscal stimulation, 66% drop in North Sea oil drilling this year (halving likely future lifespan of North Sea oil and gas), plummeting revenues, 13th consecutive month of house price falls in the UK...and that is just one day's reports.

[oldmanxfella]

Without Thatcher's reforms the UK would have sunk into third world poverty, just like the Eastern European Communist States did. I don't ask you to approve of all Maggie did - just give credit where it is due.

 

That's total rubbish in as much as Thatchers actions were not reforms .. they were a fullscale attack on Britains working classes in an attempt to transform Britain into a free market economy.

 

One of the best assessments of Thatcher's actions I have read recently was in Naomi Kleins Shock Doctrine; highlighting Maggie's determination to instill a Washington Consensus free market ideology on Britain at any cost, and to do that she had no option but to break the backs of the unions and Britain's working class.

 

Its that totally unfettered de-regulated free market system that has virtually guaranteed that we have ended up in the sort of financial mess we are in now. Even most of Britains power stations are owned by French multi nationals now so the UK does not even have control over its own power generation, much less control over anything else including (until it had to nationalise them because they were bust) its banking system.

 

I saw an interesting article in the Times yesterday suggesting that banking be relegated to simply being a utility function controlled by government as Thatchers de-regulated free market capitalist system has catastrophically failed:

 

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle6078127.ece

[Declan]

Manshimajin - My view is that comparing Brown to Franco, Galtieri, and Ceauşescu (and chuck in Evil Goblin's Mugabe) is frankly preposterous. There is nothing in today's FT or in any FT to justify the comparison. I look forward to Stu and Albert joining the thread and adding Pol Pot, Idi Amin and Vlad the Impaler into the mix...

[pongo]

OK, Pongo - I'll take the bait. Just how could a Government taking over in a near-bankrupt country have saved an industry which was producing coal at 2 or 3 times the price at which the stuff was being produced overseas?

 

You're right. The coal industry certainly was not viable as it was in 1983. Further to what you say - it was producing coal, much of it for export at a loss.

 

But British coal was really only over priced because it was competing at that time with more heavily subsidized coal from european countries and with coal from the eastern block dictatorships and Poland in particular. It was also competing with cheap (over produced) North Sea oil and gas. So it was not free competition.

 

Destroying the industry was a political failure. In attempting some sort of cure they killed it. Along they way they ruined lives and caused a great deal of unnecessary social unrest and division.

 

It is also worth remembering that, despite all the beliefs to the contrary, under Thatcher and Major Government Expenditure, far from being cut, actually rose.

 

True. For all their rhetorical talk of efficiencies they wasted huge amounts of money - much of it on paying unemployment benefits to people who had been put out of work by them disastrously losing control of the economy in the early 80s. The extraordinary sudden high value of sterling during their first term had already wiped out huge chunks of export industry. Later they would talk about having "stripped out the dead wood". The reality was that their loss of control killed many viable industrial businesses.