Slim Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 If they go fast, they won't get round the course. By fast, I mean the maximum speed of which they are capable. If they get round the course, they won't be going very fast. Incidentally, I'll be delighted to be proved wrong. I'm actually as interested in this as you are; it's just that I think the battery technology has been over-hyped. S What's fast and not very fast? What are you comparing this to relatively given this is the first time the events been run? One entry has a bike with an experimental battery that'll do 0-60mph in 4 seconds and go on to a top speed of 100mph with a range of up to 150 miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Electric cars struggle to cover 40 miles on a single charge. Affordable electric cars struggle to do 40 miles on a single charge. The ttgxp bikes are experimental machines costing upwards of 30 grand. You're comparing chalk and cheese. The faster they go, the less their range becomes. Obviously, but the same is true of petrol driven vehicles. Which means Sebrof is correct. There will be a throttle setting which will allow the TTXGP bikes to cruise round a 37-mile course, but it WON'T be maximum throttle. He's right in there's a power/speed vs range tradeoff, of course there is. There is in any race. I don't think he's right in saying they'll not make it round or need a re-charge half way. Let's wait and see at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 He's right in there's a power/speed vs range tradeoff, of course there is. There is in any race. I don't think he's right in saying they'll not make it round or need a re-charge half way. Let's wait and see at least. Slim, All I'm doing is speculating. Obviously we won't know the answer until it's all over. As for your question: "What's fast and not very fast?", I've explained it here: "By fast, I mean the maximum speed of which they are capable." These are meant to be racing bikes. I'm sure they can go very fast. What is not yet clear, and is a matter of great interest, is how FAR they can go when they are going FAST. The fact is that there is nothing at all interesting about a motorcycle that uses an electric motor. There is nothing interesting about a motorcycle that uses an electric motor and goes fast for a short distance. What IS interesting is a motorcycle that uses an electric motor, AND goes fast, and KEEPS going fast for mile after mile uphill and down. You poured enormous scorn on me a few months ago when I suggested they might not make it round the course. Well, we are soon going to find out, and, as I said, if I am wrong I shall be delighted, and if I am right I shall expect an apology for your rudeness. Well, expect is perhaps a strong term. Forlorn hope is probably closer. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 As for your question: "What's fast and not very fast?", I've explained it here:"By fast, I mean the maximum speed of which they are capable." These are meant to be racing bikes. I'm sure they can go very fast. What is not yet clear, and is a matter of great interest, is how FAR they can go when they are going FAST. That's just daft. Every race is going as fast as your capable over the distance, from running to motorsports, it's not about going to theoretical maximum speeds of your mode of transport. Why are you treating these differently because they're electric? The fact is that there is nothing at all interesting about a motorcycle that uses an electric motor. There is nothing interesting about a motorcycle that uses an electric motor and goes fast for a short distance. What IS interesting is a motorcycle that uses an electric motor, AND goes fast, and KEEPS going fast for mile after mile uphill and down. You're bonkers. This hasn't been done before. Why isn't that interesting? Again, what's fast? You can't pull 'fast' out of the air without qualifying it. An average of 100mph? 50? What? You poured enormous scorn on me a few months ago when I suggested they might not make it round the course. Well, we are soon going to find out, and, as I said, if I am wrong I shall be delighted, and if I am right I shall expect an apology for your rudeness. Well, expect is perhaps a strong term. Forlorn hope is probably closer. No, I disagreed with your 'self proclaimed expert on everything bollocks' that the tech was nothing special, and I still think you're very wrong on that even before I've seen the races. Just Am's videos above show that these aren't based on regular technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 The faster they go, the less their range becomes. Obviously, but the same is true of petrol driven vehicles. Now, I'm no expert on matters pertaining to the TT, but I have always understood that the bikes go round for several laps without refuelling. No doubt I'm wrong as usual. But, if I'm right, then your comparison with petrol-driven vehicles is hardly apposite. They are not perpetual-motion machines, so they must need filling up periodically, but the fact is that they have a USEABLE range. Do the electric bikes? That's the question. If they can't even get round the course once they are not worth a damn, and if they can't do at least two laps then they're not yet practicable transport. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 As for your question: "What's fast and not very fast?", I've explained it here:"By fast, I mean the maximum speed of which they are capable." These are meant to be racing bikes. I'm sure they can go very fast. What is not yet clear, and is a matter of great interest, is how FAR they can go when they are going FAST. That's just daft. Every race is going as fast as your capable over the distance, from running to motorsports, it's not about going to theoretical maximum speeds of your mode of transport. Why are you treating these differently because they're electric? Where exactly did I seem to be treating them differently? The petrol bikes go as fast as they can (or am I mistaken there, too, Slimbo? Do they just cruise round at half throttle?) I then said, and I repeat (for the second time): "If they go fast, they won't get round the course. By fast, I mean the maximum speed of which they are capable." That, to a person whose first language is English, means I am expecting both the petrol and the electric bikes to go as fast as they can. No difference in treatment at all. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 You're bonkers. This hasn't been done before. Why isn't that interesting? Again, what's fast? You can't pull 'fast' out of the air without qualifying it. An average of 100mph? 50? What? It hasn't been done at all, Slimbo. And some of us are sceptical that it will be done this time. By "it", I mean going round the whole TT course flat-out on a very fast electric motorbike on one charge. And if it doesn't get done, will that make YOU bonkers? Or will you just pretend you said something else, as you always do? S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 This is from an article about the TTX01, which is, or was, meant to be competing: "After completing its preliminary tests next month, the TTX01 will start a battery-powered European tour via Portugal, France, Germany and Italy before coming back to the Isle of Man in time for the zero-emission TT race next June. On a full charge and at a moderate speed, the bike's 75kg battery will currently allow it to travel around 50 miles. Using a standard 13-amp electric socket, the battery can be recharged in under two hours." Did you read the bit about 50 miles and moderate speed? Sounds to me that it won't manage half a lap flat-out. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Why has it got a fuel tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Now, I'm no expert on matters pertaining to the TT, but I have always understood that the bikes go round for several laps without refuelling.No doubt I'm wrong as usual. Right, but there's still a decision based on speed vs range. The bike could take on less fuel, and go faster, but need refuelling more often, or it could take on lots of fuel, have a greater range, but go slower. Electric bikes are no different. The petrol driven bike isn't 'going as fast as it can', it's going as fast as it can based on it's time, weight, speed and fuel consumption. But, if I'm right, then your comparison with petrol-driven vehicles is hardly apposite. They are not perpetual-motion machines, so they must need filling up periodically, but the fact is that they have a USEABLE range. Do the electric bikes? That's the question. If they can't even get round the course once they are not worth a damn, and if they can't do at least two laps then they're not yet practicable transport. That's why I'm asking you to specify what you mean by 'fast'. They, as you posted, could pootle round at 50mph and do 3 laps no worries. Or they could do 100+ average and barely make one. There's no benchmark for this yet, nobodys done it, so how are you making 'fast' judgements? The first TT bikes averaged 30mph, that was considered fast and the bikes had pedals to get them up the hills, this is supposed to be an endurance test, and you can't define 'fast' until the first electric bike completes the course. Where exactly did I seem to be treating them differently? The petrol bikes go as fast as they can (or am I mistaken there, too, Slimbo? Do they just cruise round at half throttle?) I then said, and I repeat (for the second time): "If they go fast, they won't get round the course. By fast, I mean the maximum speed of which they are capable." That, to a person whose first language is English, means I am expecting both the petrol and the electric bikes to go as fast as they can. No difference in treatment at all. The petrol bikes go as fast as they can with enough fuel to get them the distance they need to go depending on their refuelling strategy. The electric bikes will do the same. You could put a tiny amount of petrol in a TT bike, and it would go faster, but require a half way stop, for example. It's the same thing. It hasn't been done at all, Slimbo. And some of us are sceptical that it will be done this time. By "it", I mean going round the whole TT course flat-out on a very fast electric motorbike on one charge. And if it doesn't get done, will that make YOU bonkers? Or will you just pretend you said something else, as you always do? No, I've not claimed it'll be done or not. It's certainly possible they'll fail, but that's part of the challenge isn't it? It depends how aggressive they are with the speed, if the technology works, etc. They're trying though, that's what's important, they're not pissing on it from the lofty heights of a smug forum know it all. "After completing its preliminary tests next month, the TTX01 will start a battery-powered European tour via Portugal, France, Germany and Italy before coming back to the Isle of Man in time for the zero-emission TT race next June. On a full charge and at a moderate speed, the bike's 75kg battery will currently allow it to travel around 50 miles. Using a standard 13-amp electric socket, the battery can be recharged in under two hours." Did you read the bit about 50 miles and moderate speed? Sounds to me that it won't manage half a lap flat-out. S You're utterly missing the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rednik Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 The faster they go, the less their range becomes. Obviously, but the same is true of petrol driven vehicles. Now, I'm no expert on matters pertaining to the TT, but I have always understood that the bikes go round for several laps without refuelling. No doubt I'm wrong as usual. S A lot of the bikes racing next week would run out of fuel before they completed 2 laps if the rider didn't have (some) regard for fuel efficiency. Nearly every motor sport requires a compromise between speed and fuel used, it's part of the race like Slim says. Do you think Lewis Hamilton just brims his carand drives as fast as he can until it needs a refill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alias Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 But, if I'm right, then your comparison with petrol-driven vehicles is hardly apposite. They are not perpetual-motion machines, so they must need filling up periodically, but the fact is that they have a USEABLE range. Do the electric bikes? That's the question. If they can't even get round the course once they are not worth a damn, and if they can't do at least two laps then they're not yet practicable transport. Do they really need to go above half a lap to be useable, considering they can charge whilst parked? The user's not required to journey merely for 'refilling'. The racing is a mostly different feat of engineering and is largely useless to the consideration of electric powered transport (unless you're pioneering it for the 'petrol' heads). Of more importance (but less importance in a race) is the discharge cycle (and the temperature ranges) of the battery unit. Electric vehicles do currently require different perceptions of transport, but they're certainly viable for the majority of road users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyrotten Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 The difference between electric bikes and internal combustion-engined bikes in competition such as the TT is quite simple. When a petrol-powered bike runs out of petrol it comes into pitlane, fills up, and whizzes away for two more laps. When an electric bike runs out of battery power you plug it into the mains and wait till tomorrow before you ride it again. The petrol tanks are conveniently-sized to allow two laps when the bikes are at or very near their maximum performance. What intrigues us now is how the capacity of the batteries on the electric bikes will relate to the length and nature of the TT mountain course. If it proves possible to RACE them (ie ride as fast as road conditions allow) for a whole lap, without the battery running out of eletricity, everyone will be very pleased. Some of us will, quite frankly, be amazed. The question, then, remains. Can they even get round a 37-mile lap at ANY speed? If so, how close to RACING performance will they be? The fact that they are allegedly expensive prototypes is irrelevant. In fact they're mostly existing road bikes with an electric motor instead of a petrol one. Whether the batteries are sufficiently advanced to provide sufficient charge for 37 miles of racing remains to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 The difference between electric bikes and internal combustion-engined bikes in competition such as the TT is quite simple. When a petrol-powered bike runs out of petrol it comes into pitlane, fills up, and whizzes away for two more laps. When an electric bike runs out of battery power you plug it into the mains and wait till tomorrow before you ride it again. Or change the batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyrotten Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 The difference between electric bikes and internal combustion-engined bikes in competition such as the TT is quite simple. When a petrol-powered bike runs out of petrol it comes into pitlane, fills up, and whizzes away for two more laps. When an electric bike runs out of battery power you plug it into the mains and wait till tomorrow before you ride it again. Or change the batteries. Too big, too heavy, and too firmly fixed to the frame. This is racing, remember, not a 5-day sight-seeing tour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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