Albert Tatlock Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 The thread about 'ecological debt', the credit crunch and numerous other ongoing events got me thinking... ...could we build here on the island: a sustainable political, economic, social and technological model that would be the envy of the world? Could we build up and live in such a successful model on our own, and what would it actually involve and require to make it happen? If you had the budget, could set the required legislation, and had a remit to redesign/rework every aspect of life on the island and how it operated etc. what would be your plan, and what would be included/excluded in it? Though environmental issues are important, I don't mean this thread to be taken over by environmentalists: and I'm looking here for big picture thinking and specific ideas - so maybe rather than concentrate on and get bogged down arguing over specifics like wind farms etc. covered in other threads, it might be best to try and gear your answer around the acronym 'PEST' i.e. Brief overview of your model...and the changes required to implement it in terms of: Political Changes Economic Changes Social Changes Technological Changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I don't mean this thread to be taken over by environmentalists: and I'm looking here for big picture thinking and specific ideas Not another go to get the monorail Albert???? But seriously...I would like to see us experiment politically with the use of the internet to allow a much truer democracy in which people could vote directly on matters of importance. Communications technology can allow much greater levels of participation. We have a tradition of "democracy" that we like to extoll - let's make the big move to giving everyone the chance to participate continuously not just at election times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back to the Future Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 But seriously...I would like to see us experiment politically with the use of the internet to allow a much truer democracy in which people could vote directly on matters of importance. Communications technology can allow much greater levels of participation. We have a tradition of "democracy" that we like to extoll - let's make the big move to giving everyone the chance to participate continuously not just at election times. Definitely agree with the sentiment - but are we to give free computers and internet connection to those who can't afford them ? Not everyone is able to get to libraries etc to use the internet if they don't have this available at home. .. Monorail, Monorail, Monorail, Monorail, .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moghrey Mie Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 The thread about 'ecological debt', the credit crunch and numerous other ongoing events got me thinking... ...could we build here on the island: a sustainable political, economic, social and technological model that would be the envy of the world? Could we build up and live in such a successful model on our own, and what would it actually involve and require to make it happen? If you had the budget, could set the required legislation, and had a remit to redesign/rework every aspect of life on the island and how it operated etc. what would be your plan, and what would be included/excluded in it? Though environmental issues are important, I don't mean this thread to be taken over by environmentalists: and I'm looking here for big picture thinking and specific ideas - so maybe rather than concentrate on and get bogged down arguing over specifics like wind farms etc. covered in other threads, it might be best to try and gear your answer around the acronym 'PEST' i.e. Brief overview of your model...and the changes required to implement it in terms of: Political Changes Economic Changes Social Changes Technological Changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted April 12, 2009 Author Share Posted April 12, 2009 use of the internet to allow a much truer democracy in which people could vote directly on matters of importance. Definitely agree with the sentiment - but are we to give free computers and internet connection to those who can't afford them ? Could be done though - lots of devices use the internet and it doesn't have to be a computer. e.g. could be a much simpler and cheap tamper-proof electronic terminal device connected wirelessly, with information about 'the debate' delivered either to the device itself, as a quarterly handout posted to each household, or via computer if people so choose. I'll put that down as a political change - as 'a far more interactive democracy'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moghrey Mie Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Democratic equality-small government doing essential things like legislation (not running the buses and theatre) Real and effective local government involvng people of all ages and types in their local communities. Economic equality-it has been proved that societies with more equality are more likely to function well. More money doesn't lead to more happiness. Inequality of income and wealth leads to discontent and crime etc etc Social equality-everybody is entitled to decent housing, a worthwhile job and good life-long education. Technological changes- look for the best in the world and apply it to the IOM. Many simple technologies are never implemented eg water pumps in Africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Maybe we should give communism a shot? (We only have to do a small redesign of the flag!) Seriously though, I think Albert has had a good thought here. I have often wondered if the Island could be totally self sufficient and innovative. There was a candidate for Michael for the Keys in the early eighties who used this in his manifesto, his name slips my mind, I think he was ahead of his time. He was unsuccessful and passed away shortly after the election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slinkydevil Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I'd like to see some sort of subsistence farming developed. Use of arable land handed over/rented to communities that can work the land to feed the Island. Myself and my wife have put our name down for some land being given over as allotments but it's like 25 plots for the whole of Douglas which will I fear be heavily over subscribed. I'd like to see more schemes like this developed and quickly, not the land will be available in a year. Perhaps a Kibbutz style system would work, or some system where we can fall back on working as small-holders. Local markets developed where produce can be sold or traded, and any extra high quality produce we produce could be exported. Whatever happens I'd like a lot more community spirited schemes to appear where we pull together to achieve. This goes under the Social Changes section for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Giving people a pseudo - democratic vote on many little things depends upon deciding what questions to ask them. It is as open to manipulation as any other system. At the same time it also risks a nightmare scenario in which the majority actually get what they ask for. Which means ending up with a populist decisions being agreed - rather than correct decisions. Govt by referendum is a recipe used by weak govts which lack confidence. The Rise and Rise of Michael Rimmer is a 1970 film in which the character played by Peter Cook ends up being elected Prime Minister on just such a populist ticket. He introduces referendum questions on every small issue and the people cast their votes from home. But they quickly become bored with being asked about everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Giving people a pseudo - democratic vote on many little things depends upon deciding what questions to ask them. It is as open to manipulation as any other system. At the same time it also risks a nightmare scenario in which the majority actually get what they ask for. The alternative is that we end up getting what we didn't ask for - and judging by comments in this forum and the media our current system does not prevent poor decisions being made!!! I am sure that the political sub-group would not like a wider democratic process as it distributes power and influence more widely. A lot of thought needs to go into how you can use modern 21st century communcations in the political process but we currently use something from about the 15th century or earlier. I raise this because it is achievable, radical and would set us apart from other democracies. I am not 100% sure how it would best work but if you don't start on a journey you get nowhere. It would build on our supposed 'heritage' of democracy. It might not work in a large country. Hoewever it could be suitable in a small country where local knowledge is high - which is what we are. Politics currenly aims to disempower the people - maybe people would take much more interest if they got the opportunity to have more influence? On a wider front I suspect that Albert's question about "a sustainable political, economic, social and technological model that would be the envy of the world" must have a flexible and relevant education and skills development system at its core. Everything starts and finishes with what people DO with the resources they have. A radically different society needs a radically different approach to education, information sharing and decision making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluemonday Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Greater recognition of the value and use of the extended family. China and other countries do this, the west doesn't seem keen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Greater recognition of the value and use of the extended family. China and other countries do this, the west doesn't seem keen. excellent manx example - the last of The Atholl's (Murray family) - installed his family in most positions of power (Bishop etc) - generally known as nepotism, once established difficult to get rid of - the Manx managed it via riots which forced London to intervene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lao Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I would like to echo the 'more involved Democracy' ideas, with ever increasing communication and social networking more people can have their say on more things. A system could be introduced where social concepts that had large impacts would be voted on by all, and the numerous smaller issues would be handed out to random pockets of voters which would still be large enough to give a fair census of public opinion. in a similar manner to jury duty. Education would be the area most of my own effort would go if i had the control spoken about in the original post. My campaign would focus on the sciences but I would also like to see an increase in improving IQ, reasoning skills, debate and philosophy. with more control being given to the people, the intelligence of the people would become increasingly important. recognizing persuasive language and logical fallacies as well as recognizing well reasoned arguments would become vital in the voting process. I would like to see more effort put into making society more meritocratic so perhaps blind elections could be experimented with. I am not even certain myself that it would work, but simply basing your judgment for government officials on their manifesto without having the prejudice of knowing that persons sex, colour, religion or sexual preference can't be worse than the farcical 'appeal to popularity' logical fallacy driven political campaigns we see today. i think this would take a long time to get right and several different methods would require exhaustive testing and evolution. If a system for the above could evolve to be fair and usable a similar one could be used for employment, I see major difficulties in both of the above but with a blank slate to experiment with i would want to give it a try. So to summarize i would be looking to create an 'educationally-centered-meritocratic-technocracy'. Since I am delving so far into fantasy land i might as well give myself a huge bank balance, become irresistibly attractive to the opposite sex and have a much improved sense of fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alias Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I'm surprised Albert advocates it - say goodbye to your 'precious civil liberties' if this were to be enacted. The majority of voters have little interest/knowledge in most topics, giving them a vote on such would just lead them to impulse choices - pushed by lobbies. Perhaps a system where people could vote to dismiss bills (in a majority have veto-style approach), would be more realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I'm surprised Albert advocates it - say goodbye to your 'precious civil liberties' if this were to be enacted. The majority of voters have little interest/knowledge in most topics, giving them a vote on such would just lead them to impulse choices - pushed by lobbies. Perhaps a system where people could vote to dismiss bills (in a majority have veto-style approach), would be more realistic. We would be at the leading edge of political change so this is why we would need to find out what is effective and works - and what doesn't. But IMO it is better to try ideas and to experiment than to dismiss them outright. For example the idea you have put forward. Or, it might be best to have 2/3rds majority for ideas to be accepted into law and a certain minimum number of votes cast; there could be some system of allowing people to nominate things they want to be done; the Manx people might be given choice over capital expenditure projects; there might be some method of prioritising the legislative options. As far as I know there is no example (other than trivial) where there has been an attempt to update the political process to reflect the changed communication and technology environment that we live in. At present the main 'democratic' advance we have made is lowering the voting age... Some process would be needed to drive investigation of this type of change. Maybe to get an internationally renowned university to use us as a 'test-bed' for 'future democracy'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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