triskelion Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 As for comments about needing protection from supplements, I would also like to be the judge of that myself. I really don't need Big Brother to decide what's best for me. And who protects me from the known dire side-effects of many medications? That's just an acceptable part of pharmaceutical profits apparently. No you shouldn't; unless you are a qualified medical professional. Attempting to see a corporate conspiracy here is laughable; as if Boots et al are selling these quack medicines out of charity and in defiance of big business. If these are so effective, where is the scientific basis for it? Most real medicines dispensed are generic and inexpensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knox_knox Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 As for comments about needing protection from supplements, I would also like to be the judge of that myself. I really don't need Big Brother to decide what's best for me. And who protects me from the known dire side-effects of many medications? That's just an acceptable part of pharmaceutical profits apparently. No you shouldn't; unless you are a qualified medical professional. Attempting to see a corporate conspiracy here is laughable; as if Boots et al are selling these quack medicines out of charity and in defiance of big business. If these are so effective, where is the scientific basis for it? Most real medicines dispensed are generic and inexpensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knox_knox Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 As for comments about needing protection from supplements, I would also like to be the judge of that myself. I really don't need Big Brother to decide what's best for me. And who protects me from the known dire side-effects of many medications? That's just an acceptable part of pharmaceutical profits apparently. No you shouldn't; unless you are a qualified medical professional. Attempting to see a corporate conspiracy here is laughable; as if Boots et al are selling these quack medicines out of charity and in defiance of big business. If these are so effective, where is the scientific basis for it? Most real medicines dispensed are generic and inexpensive. It's a case of supply and demand. Numerous people apparently feel they benefit from supplements. Please direct me to reliable, scientific data about dire effects that have been suffered by those who take supplements with an equally reliable comparison of pharmaceuticals. How many doctors fully investigate compatibility between different medications before prescribing. Furthermore, what qualifies you to tell me that I must be a qualified medical professional to decide if I wish to supplement the vitamins and minerals sadly lacking in mass-produced vegetables etc.? Who decides if it's ok for someone to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes? Both items surely having massive, known side-effects. I repeat that I do not need Big Brother to decide what's best for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 A 20 second go with the google scholar filter gives some idea of the evidence out there - sounds like your not interesting in informed consent knox knox - seems stupid to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 A silly example of the power of the placebo effect - and how the metaphysics of healing can benefit people even when they are undergoing a test! Link - half way down the page. Get ready for lidocaine spam: In a study that should surprise no one, applying a topical anesthetic spray to the penis shortly before intercourse significantly extended the average time of intercourse. In this case, the results came from a double-blind, placebo-controlled, multicenter study involving 300 men suffering from premature ejaculation. The experimental treatment was a spray that contained a 3:1 ratio of lidocaine and prilocaine, presumably made by the pharmaceutical company that both authors are affiliated with. This extended intercourse by over five fold in these men; not surprisingly, two thirds of them rated the spray as "good" or "excellent." Of course, the placebo group tells us something about all the things we're currently getting spammed for, as the time of intercourse doubled for these subjects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knox_knox Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 A 20 second go with the google scholar filter gives some idea of the evidence out there - sounds like your not interesting in informed consent knox knox - seems stupid to me. I have been researching this stuff for years - and using supplements prescribed by medics (outside of UK in superb healthcare system) as well as self-prescription. You obviously didn't read my previous post very thoroughly. If supplements are to be under the control of conventional medicine then medical schools had better start including adequate nutritional study in the curriculum, otherwise we would have the ludicrous situation of being advised by people who have received very little information about this area. However, no-one seems to be addressing the important issue of personal liberty and produce. Why does Codex seek to ensure more chemicals in organics, further proliferate GM food and at the same time remove our access to vitamins to compensate for the resulting produce? Why should anyone want to do that? No, I'm not going there - I'm just asking why our personal liberty is being ignored on this issue? Additives, chemicals etc have a serious effect on my health. I wish to continue being able to access fresh, organically grown fruit and veg. (preferably without the larger price tag). Why should anyone wish to introduce legislation to the contrary? Live and let live, I say. People are at liberty to ruin their lungs or livers through cigarettes and alcohol. Why should anyone want to tamper with food? By the way it takes more than a quick Google search to acquire some insight into this. Is that how you decide everything in life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 I wish to continue being able to access fresh, organically grown fruit and veg. (preferably without the larger price tag). grow your own ? - I'm always amused by the 'organic label' on many higher price products some of which originate from places like China which is not known for strict control. However the main problem with organic suppliers at present appears to be size - the overheads are a much higher %age for the grower, growers' markets only really work with nearby large catchment areas - however one key problem is the reduced output per acre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Please direct me to reliable, scientific data about dire effects that have been suffered by those who take supplements They turn you into Barbara Cartland: you write shit novels, buy make-up from polyfilla and become obsessed with all things pink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimcalagon Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 I'm thinking about setting up the Alliance for Unnatural Health, you know living forever by drinking the blood of virgins (like knoxville), sacrificing goats to Cthulhu etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terse Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Can I be an Unnatural Practioner?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimcalagon Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Yes, send me a cheque for £500 and I'll confer a completely bogus qualification (similar to a PhD in Homeopathy) on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 I'm thinking about setting up the Alliance for Unnatural Health, you know living forever by drinking the blood of virgins (like knoxville),............... Count me out. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermes Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Being as I am a devil's advocate (Jouyl Chambers, Atholl Street), here are a few more thoughts on science, industry and health: Scientifically-proven healthcare interventions are useless unless the patient employing them believes in them. As an example, what proportion of prescribed medicines to treat a given condition (eg: high cholesterol or blood pressure) are taken as the doctor indicates? A significant proportion do not. Research shows a proven benefit in the 'lab' for taking the medicine, and is supposed to screen out bad side effects. But... however vaunted this scientific method is, out in the real world how can we measure how effective the treatment actually is? No drug company is really interested in this information, as its prime goal is to sell products. A great review of the pitfalls of prescribed medicines is here. Taking this into account with what certainty can one argue for the effectiveness of a 'conventional' therapy over an 'alternative' therapy outside of a lab or clinical trial environment? Philosophically at least, it becomes more difficult. Consider that the majority of people visit their doctors with a condition that will resolve of its own accord or with a change in behaviour, diet and lifestyle, yet are prescribed a drug to 'treat' it. As an example, consider how the condition of 'unhappiness' has been medicalised into something called 'depression' with the most common medical intervention being a course of antidepressant drugs (6 months of guaranteed income for a drug company at maybe £20/month cost), rather than support in recognising and dealing with the unhappy life situation. Who invented 'toxins'? Why do we need a 'detox', and from what? People are obviously feeling sick from the accrued effects (psychological and physiological) of our Consumerist society, controlled on every side by an industry of some sort. The passive amorality of the 'supplements' industry and the faith-based consumerism of some 'alternative health' practices which saturate our media are another example of this. Between 'faith-based' medicine, government interventionism and the pressures exerted on medics and patients by the pharmaceuticals industry our health is becoming a commodity for trade, rather than our own keepsake. Do we all generally feel healthier because of the latest medical science? Or is that just the Prozac talking? It should be up to us to decide how healthy we want to be, how long we want to live, and in what way we conduct ourselves when we make choices, no matter how irrational these seem. Based on the latest science, engineering and performance Jeremy Clarkson might tell you that the only car worth getting is a Zonda .... but most people might just want a Honda! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringwraith Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 What seems to be at stake here mainly is the issue of nutritional value of food, and its effect on supporting the immune system. Obviously truly organic produce grown locally, in rich well conditioned soil, is the key to ingesting what the body needs to function at an optimal level. If the CODEX regulations now start to attack true organics and allow the creep of harmful pesticides and GM / GE into our already highly processed and nutrient deficient western diets, there is cause for alarm. Also the other subjects the guy will be covering look interesting, such as EMF radiation. We are now being saturated by this (untested) technology, this could have further detrimental effects on our health. I’m looking forward to hearing what this guy has to say, I’ll judge him after I’ve heard him speak on the issues advertised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimcalagon Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Scientifically-proven healthcare interventions are useless unless the patient employing them believes in them. As an example, what proportion of prescribed medicines to treat a given condition (eg: high cholesterol or blood pressure) are taken as the doctor indicates? Bollocks. If a medicine is effective, it is effective. It is only placebos (e.g. homeopathy) which rely on the patient believing they work. Your point about whether the patient self-adminsters the correct dosage is incidental and pure sophistry. It should be up to us to decide how healthy we want to be, how long we want to live... I've decided that I want to live forever in perfect health. However fate or blind chance will probably dictate otherwise, no matter how fervently I wish it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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