Sebrof Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 What i am confused about is where the 5% of the islands power that comes from the energy from waste plant goes to because we seem to be paying twice for that It's sold to the MEA, who then sell it to us. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Agree Frances, a lot of the negative talk around alternatives is based on current consumption. Consumption is at current levels because energy is so cheap, that's been proved to drop sharply when the cost goes up. Renewables have to be combined with reduced waste and a big jump in efficiency to work. Batteries are never used by commercial electricity suppliers. The cost would be astronomical. The only sort of storage that makes economic sense is pumping water into a high dam, or in the case of tidal systems, into a vast lagoon. This is the thinking behind the Severn Barrage project. They're starting to be, vanadium redox batteries are used for wind farms already and they're planned for use in a number of new installations, eg: http://www.citrusdaily.com/local-news/prog...03/29/3836.html "Two solar arrays are installed - one on the USF St. Petersburg campus and the other in Albert Whitted Park in St. Petersburg - and the output of these solar arrays is stored in an advanced battery system known as a Vanadium Redox Battery Energy Storage System. The stored solar energy will be used to help reduce other forms of generation needed to meet peak demands during summer and winter" Pumped water storage and batteries aren't the only storage solution for off peak demand either, there's also flywheels, compressed air and hydrogen for example. I just cannot see the point in this. They will still have to cater for peak demand in December. If, like this morning, there's no wind then the turbines will be useless. Then there will be the cost of maintining a power source that will be idle for some of the time. And then, of course, there is the environmental impact. We have a beautiful island and the sight of these turbines on exposed ground will be grotesque in my opinion. So no, I'm not a fan (pun intended) and hope the project dies a death. Not surprised you're a nimby Cronky. The power stations at pulrose and peel look worse than any wind turbine, did you complain about those? We're part of a much larger grid via existing power stations and a cable to the uk that links us to nuclear power. We've plenty of sources for when the wind doesn't blow, that doesn't mean you shouldn't collect that energy when it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 small windmills are discussed at http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/19/2022214 - seems they are even worse than I thought. Re storage - I've seen photos of a domestic hydrogen storage system - several large high pressure vessels each about twice the volume of a domestic oil tank - I certainly wouldn't want to live near one (and judging from the layout only suitable for remote American sites. Spinning flywheels are interesting when they break apart - you need to store a significant amount of energy to keep a house going for a few days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Re storage - I've seen photos of a domestic hydrogen storage system - several large high pressure vessels each about twice the volume of a domestic oil tank - I certainly wouldn't want to live near one (and judging from the layout only suitable for remote American sites.Spinning flywheels are interesting when they break apart - you need to store a significant amount of energy to keep a house going for a few days Was talking specifically for grid storage really, not domestic. I wouldn't fancy a flywheel in my garage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Two things: 1. Wind turbines on high ridges seem to operate in relatively light winds from what I have seen. 2. Not for storing large 'amounts' of electricity, so this is a at a bit of a tangent - but there is serious research money going into fast (almost instant) charging super capacitors as a potential alternative to lithium based cells for powering devices, vehicles etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermes Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Mike Proffit and his associates have been involved with wind power companies subsequent to him leaving the MEA. Google 'Carnegie' and 'Renewable Energy Holdings Plc ' and you will see what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Exactly. And what really sticks in my craw is that a major part of his "credibility" portfolio will the the "successful" completion of a multi-million dollar "national" energy project. Of course, the huge cost overrun, the hopelessly wrong choice of partner in Enron, the "legality" of the finances etc etc will not merit a mention - well fancy that! I would also expect the way they took over skyward, the outrageous retainer they awarded themselves, the quite ridiculously expensive and unnecessary "research" they undertook and the hopelessly inadequate "business plan" they produced at the end of it will all be forgotten as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Not surprised you're a nimby Cronky. The power stations at pulrose and peel look worse than any wind turbine, did you complain about those? My 'back yard' is the Isle of Man. A unique and beautiful island in my opinion and I don't like the prospect of the skyline being dominated by these things. If a dozen wind turbines supplied all the electricity we ever needed I probably wouldn't object. However, as they would only supply 12 percent of the grid what's the point? You will have the capital cost of the purchase plus the cost of maintenance in addition to the cost of running the power station. My hunch is that such a project would push up electricity bills for little actual benfit. So what's the point? Personally, I think they should run the existing power station to the end of it's life and buy a small nuclear unit with enough excess capacity to sell some to the UK grid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Personally, I think they should run the existing power station to the end of it's life and buy a small nuclear unit with enough excess capacity to sell some to the UK grid. I don't believe there is such a thing as a commercial-off-the-shelf small nuclear power station. You would be talking a good few hundred of £millions to build and (plus) operate one here I suspect (at least 3 times the cost of the gas powered station). Going by the way things are done here, no doubt it'd all end up in a 'island 3 miles up in the air' incident anyway. I don't want to see turbines all over the island either. I don't see why a windfarm can't be put out to sea - out of sight and out of mind. We pass a similar one on the boat heading for the UK. Build a big enough one out to sea and you can export the electrickery too, and maybe through tax etc. advantages start to encourage manufacturers of these things to locate here where they too could build and export the things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 I don't believe there is such a thing as a commercial-off-the-shelf small nuclear power station. Not recently been shopping for one so don't know either! To take up your point about putting a wind farm out to sea I agree that would be less of an eyesore. But I still don't see the point as the requirement for 100% electricity generation from another source will always remain. Thus when the time comes to replace the Pulrose unit we will still be faced with the full capital cost of creating 100% electricity for the island. Look at this evening. It's flat calm and a wind farm would just be a fashion item. How does it make life cheaper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theman Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 I don't believe there is such a thing as a commercial-off-the-shelf small nuclear power station. Not recently been shopping for one so don't know either! To take up your point about putting a wind farm out to sea I agree that would be less of an eyesore. But I still don't see the point as the requirement for 100% electricity generation from another source will always remain. Thus when the time comes to replace the Pulrose unit we will still be faced with the full capital cost of creating 100% electricity for the island. Look at this evening. It's flat calm and a wind farm would just be a fashion item. How does it make life cheaper? http://www.angstrom-advanced.com/index.asp?page=HGH5000 Try that link it will point you in the right way. Personally i think that Wind turbines are a wast of time. The cost & engery not to mention. The oil that they will be burned in the making Processing of these wind turbines out scales WHAT YOU GET IT BACK!!! Personally thinking conspiracy is wast all the oil & make lot's of money. then move on to the next level. how would the world be to day if there was no money. how would we of evolutionised ? i dont think we would raping are planet in the same way as we are in to days world. FREEDOM!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 My 'back yard' is the Isle of Man. A unique and beautiful island in my opinion and I don't like the prospect of the skyline being dominated by these things. If a dozen wind turbines supplied all the electricity we ever needed I probably wouldn't object. However, as they would only supply 12 percent of the grid what's the point? You will have the capital cost of the purchase plus the cost of maintenance in addition to the cost of running the power station.My hunch is that such a project would push up electricity bills for little actual benfit. So what's the point? The points: - energy independance - clean energy - free energy - diverse sources of energy You didn't answer my questions, do you like the island skyline being dominated by gas powerstations? Did you object to those being built? The headline says six to twelve providing 12% of the islands energy. If you doubled efficiency, which is achiveable, that's 24%. You can then reduce your dependance on imported polluting fuel for the sake of a few turbines, how is that not worth it? In isolation it might not seem like much, but combined with other renewables and increased efficiency it's definately worth it. Running the existing station to the end of its life simply might not be an option if fossil fuel prices go the way many expect, we need to be diversifying our power sources now in preparation. As to small nuclear, can we stick to talking about things that exist? Albert, offshore is probably better for us, but they do come with additional costs obviously. Theman: what do you think powers that hydrogen generator? As for life cycle impact, do you want to compare it with a gas powered generator? Large modern wind turbies do now come into positive in terms of resources used to make them over their lifetime. A gas powered station will never go anywhere but negative in recouping the resources used to make it. What's better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringwraith Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 If government are looking for a deal, it may be worth contacting Iberdrola Renewables. http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle5977714.ece http://www.iberdrolarenovables.es/wcren/co...ENINICIORENOVAB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slinkydevil Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 As to small nuclear, can we stick to talking about things that exist? Mini Nuclear power plants are being developed though (exist? probably only in a research lab for now), you can't discount it completley as an option. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008...tors-los-alamos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 You didn't answer my questions, do you like the island skyline being dominated by gas powerstations? But the power stations are not on the skyline. As a regular fell walker I would argue that the best breeze is on top of Snaefel, South Barule and North Barule. That is where they would want to build the wind farms - on the skyline. However, just wait until the first winter anti-cyclone. You will then have to explain why the windmills are stationary and the gas power station is working flat out! Even if windmills powered 24% of the grid that's only on a windy day. Until there is some way they can store the charge it is, in my opinion, just a duplication of capital investment. As to small nuclear, can we stick to talking about things that exist? Sure. The Irish Sea submarine training areas are full of UK boats powered by small nuclear power units. The only obstacle to a small nuclear power station is commercial viability. However, the UK are having to order up new nuclear units to keep the grid supplied. I would argue that, for remote, islands, a market may well open up for small to medium size units. If such a unit became available at the right price what would be the objection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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